±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 600
Total: 600
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Photo Gallery
04: Home
05: Community Forums
06: News
07: Photo Gallery
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Downloads
18: Community Forums
19: Member Screenshots
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Downloads
24: Photo Gallery
25: Photo Gallery
26: Community Forums
27: Home
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Downloads
31: Community Forums
32: Home
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Your Account
41: Downloads
42: Community Forums
43: Photo Gallery
44: Home
45: Community Forums
46: Photo Gallery
47: Home
48: Community Forums
49: Downloads
50: Downloads
51: Community Forums
52: Home
53: Your Account
54: Home
55: Downloads
56: Photo Gallery
57: Photo Gallery
58: CPGlang
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Photo Gallery
62: Downloads
63: Community Forums
64: Photo Gallery
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Home
68: Photo Gallery
69: Photo Gallery
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Downloads
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Photo Gallery
76: Photo Gallery
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Downloads
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Your Account
88: Downloads
89: Community Forums
90: Photo Gallery
91: Your Account
92: Community Forums
93: Your Account
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Your Account
99: Community Forums
100: Photo Gallery
101: Home
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Photo Gallery
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Photo Gallery
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: News Archive
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Downloads
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Home
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Home
137: Community Forums
138: Downloads
139: Community Forums
140: CPGlang
141: Photo Gallery
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Photo Gallery
148: Community Forums
149: Your Account
150: Community Forums
151: Photo Gallery
152: Home
153: Photo Gallery
154: Photo Gallery
155: Community Forums
156: Downloads
157: Photo Gallery
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Your Account
162: Photo Gallery
163: Community Forums
164: Downloads
165: Community Forums
166: Photo Gallery
167: Home
168: Community Forums
169: CPGlang
170: Community Forums
171: Photo Gallery
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Photo Gallery
175: Community Forums
176: Photo Gallery
177: Community Forums
178: Photo Gallery
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Photo Gallery
182: Photo Gallery
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Photo Gallery
186: Home
187: Community Forums
188: Home
189: Downloads
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Downloads
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Photo Gallery
200: Community Forums
201: Photo Gallery
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Photo Gallery
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Downloads
213: Home
214: Photo Gallery
215: Community Forums
216: Home
217: Home
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: CPGlang
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Member Screenshots
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Photo Gallery
231: Home
232: Community Forums
233: Photo Gallery
234: Home
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Home
238: Photo Gallery
239: Community Forums
240: Photo Gallery
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Home
244: Statistics
245: Photo Gallery
246: Member Screenshots
247: Statistics
248: Community Forums
249: Downloads
250: Home
251: Photo Gallery
252: Home
253: Photo Gallery
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Home
259: Photo Gallery
260: Community Forums
261: Member Screenshots
262: CPGlang
263: Community Forums
264: Photo Gallery
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Photo Gallery
270: Home
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Home
276: Photo Gallery
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Photo Gallery
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Photo Gallery
284: Photo Gallery
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Photo Gallery
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Photo Gallery
306: Community Forums
307: Home
308: Community Forums
309: Home
310: Home
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Downloads
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Home
317: Community Forums
318: Photo Gallery
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Home
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Photo Gallery
328: Community Forums
329: Photo Gallery
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Photo Gallery
335: Photo Gallery
336: Community Forums
337: Your Account
338: Home
339: Your Account
340: Home
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: News
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Home
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: CPGlang
357: Community Forums
358: Photo Gallery
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Home
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Member Screenshots
368: Photo Gallery
369: Community Forums
370: Home
371: CPGlang
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Photo Gallery
378: Photo Gallery
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Home
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Photo Gallery
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: CPGlang
395: Community Forums
396: Home
397: Community Forums
398: Photo Gallery
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Home
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: Photo Gallery
405: Home
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Downloads
409: Community Forums
410: Photo Gallery
411: Community Forums
412: Photo Gallery
413: Community Forums
414: Photo Gallery
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Statistics
419: Community Forums
420: Downloads
421: Photo Gallery
422: Home
423: Home
424: Community Forums
425: Downloads
426: News
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Home
434: Home
435: Photo Gallery
436: Community Forums
437: Photo Gallery
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Photo Gallery
441: Community Forums
442: Photo Gallery
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: CPGlang
446: Photo Gallery
447: Community Forums
448: Photo Gallery
449: Statistics
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Photo Gallery
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Photo Gallery
463: Community Forums
464: Home
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Home
468: Photo Gallery
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Home
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Photo Gallery
475: Community Forums
476: Photo Gallery
477: Home
478: Photo Gallery
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Photo Gallery
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Home
485: Home
486: Community Forums
487: Photo Gallery
488: Community Forums
489: Home
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Photo Gallery
494: Home
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Home
499: Home
500: Member Screenshots
501: Community Forums
502: Home
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Home
509: Community Forums
510: Photo Gallery
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Home
514: Home
515: Photo Gallery
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Downloads
522: Home
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Photo Gallery
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Home
531: Downloads
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Statistics
535: Downloads
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Member Screenshots
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Photo Gallery
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Photo Gallery
547: Home
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Home
555: Community Forums
556: CPGlang
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Community Forums
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Community Forums
564: Photo Gallery
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Member Screenshots
568: Home
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Photo Gallery
574: Downloads
575: Home
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Member Screenshots
584: Your Account
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Community Forums
589: Community Forums
590: News
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Home
599: Photo Gallery
600: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
1st Cav Museum at Ft Hood...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:35 am
Post subject: 1st Cav Museum at Ft Hood...


Where to start!!!, It's good to be back on here, FINALLY! I'm the acting CSM for the rear-D of my unit here at Ft Hood so I've been very busy as of late with all the depolyments. Not to mention my move from Ft Irwin and the re-build of my computer. But now I'm ready to start posting again. These pictures are from the 1st Cav museum vehicles. The museum itself will be closed from 1 Aug through 14 September for a total rebuild and modification. The only exhibits open will be the OIF and out-door displays. I still have to get to the 4th ID museum before they move. They are being replaced by the 3rd ACR, which "un-cased" its colors last week. The 1st Cav museum was very impressive as far as its vehicles being clean and very "presentable". I have yet to go inside so it will be mid-September before I can do that. I hope to get to the future "range targets" this week behind range control and document their numbers and get some pictures as well. They look to be all M60's from the road way. I also found a very odd varient of an M113 in a "training" motorpool that I hope to sneak some pictures of.
To those of you who are able to get Ft Hood way, let me know so I can meet you and show you around. I have been extremely busy with CSM duties and other jobs I dont care to mention here so I haven't been able to get with the museum director. But I do know the post and can get you on. Just let me know if you're in the AO, you all are welcome in my home.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
jcneel
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 101
Location: Victoria, Texas
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:26 am
Post subject: Re: 1st Cav Museum at Ft Hood...

When is the 4TH ID museum supposed to move and where is it going? I might have to try and make a trip up that way before they go if I can make it.

cn
Back to top
View user's profile
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:42 pm
Post subject: Re: 1st Cav Museum at Ft Hood...

- SFC_Jeff_Button

To those of you who are able to get Ft Hood way, let me know so I can meet you and show you around. I have been extremely busy with CSM duties and other jobs I dont care to mention here so I haven't been able to get with the museum director. But I do know the post and can get you on. Just let me know if you're in the AO, you all are welcome in my home.


Jeff - if you have any 'minor miscreants' sentence them to doing a thorough image walkaround of one of the exhibits for me will you Wink There are a couple there that I would like to add to the web site..

Cool

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:41 pm
Post subject: Re: 1st Cav Museum at Ft Hood...

Hi JC! Hi Folks!

- jcneel

When is the 4TH ID museum supposed to move and where is it going?


I don't know the when part, but the where part under BRAC, has the 4th ID elements at Ft Hood moving to Ft. Carson Colorado and joining up with the one brigade that is already there.

If Carson is closer, just wait for them to arrive and set up.

The 3rd ACR which was at Carson before it when to Iraq is standing up at Ft. Hood as one of the new type 'Unit of Action' Heavy Brigades.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:09 pm
Post subject: Re: 1st Cav Museum at Ft Hood...

Jim, which exhibits are you looking for? I'll see what I can do.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
binder001
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:57 am
Post subject: Re: 1st Cav Museum at Ft Hood...

Thanks for the nice photos Jeff. I hope as duties allow we can get occasional "walk arounds" of the goodies there.

Gary Binder
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:32 am
Post subject: Re: 1st Cav Museum at Ft Hood...

Jeff, many thanks for the pictures! I still need some help with sorting out my 1st Cav Museum & 4th ID Museum inventory lists. I think I have some erroneous duplicates on my lists (the M10 Achilles for example). Here's the 1st Cav list:

2S1 SOV out
AMX-10P FRA/IRQ? out
BMP-1 SOV/IRQ? out
BTR-50PB SOV out Captured by Israel in 1967
EE-11 Urutu BRA out
M1E1 Abrams USA out
M3 Stuart USA/JPN? out Captured by IJA
M3A1 Stuart USA out RN 30851
M3A1 Half-Track USA out
M4(105) Sherman USA out
M4A1(75) Sherman USA out Painted RN 3015305
M4A3E8 Sherman Easy Eight USA out
M5A1 Stuart USA out
M7 Priest USA out
M8 Greyhound USA out
M10 GMC USA out
M10 Achilles USA out
M20 USA out
M24 Chaffee USA out
M26 Pershing USA out
M36B1 USA/YUG/HRV out Post-war assembly?
M40 USA out?
M41 Walker Bulldog USA out
M44 USA out
M48A5 Patton USA out Painted RN 0718842
M59 USA out
M60 USA out SN 504
M60A1 RISE USA out SN 8800
M60A3 USA out SN 3079A; has reactive armor
M74 USA out
M113A2 USA out
M114 USA out
M163 USA out
M728 CEV USA out
PT-76 SOV out
T43 Heavy Tank USA out
T-54/55 SOV out
T-55 ARV SOV out
T-62 SOV out
T-72M SOV/IRQ out
Type 69 CHN out

Many thanks,

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
HF_Evolution
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 22, 2005
Posts: 14
Location: Wales UK
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:23 pm
Post subject: Re: 1st Cav Museum at Ft Hood...

Nice picture of the Sherman, the British much to the disgust of the yanks stuch a 17pounder cann on in many of there Shermans, thinking the american gun was not good enough, they called this tank a Firefly. The Germans knicknamed them "Tommy Cookers", as when they were hit the brewed up (burst into flames, and the crews were usualy cooked. They were not at all as good as the german Arour, no way near, but there advantage was numbers. As one german tank commander said" As they came over the hill we destoyed them, all day, by the night the burning wrecks were all over the place and we congradulated our selves, next morning they came swarming over the hill again, we could not stop them and had to with draw."
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:30 pm
Post subject: Re: 1st Cav Museum at Ft Hood...

Be gentle with him, Guys....
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:01 pm
Post subject: Re: 1st Cav Museum at Ft Hood...

- Doug_Kibbey
Be gentle with him, Guys....


Where to start, where to start? There is so much wrong with that post that I wonder if it is intentionally intended to create a controversy. New guy, one post, and he starts with that...

I'll leave it to the others to set him straight. We've done this too many times now!

C

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:49 pm
Post subject: Re: 1st Cav Museum at Ft Hood...

I have tried to reply and had my reply lost 3 times now ( I think we are having network problems here, or I am just having a severe case of fat fingers). I will attempt to reply this evening if no one else has

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:41 am
Post subject: Re: 1st Cav Museum at Ft Hood...

Okay - I'm home now so lets lay out the defense of the Sherman

the 17pdr was a very good antitank gun, but it had poor HE performance. The 75mm had excellent HE performance but by 1944 mediocre armor piercing capability. The 75mm was being replaced by the 76mm gun (That is what the pictured tank is equipped with) The 76mm had moderate AP capability combined with good HE capability. Since most Shermans in American units spent their time dealing with antitank guns, buildings, machine gun emplacements, etc. HE performance was very important. The Sherman had one big advantage over the German tanks. It's powered turret was excellent. The Sherman used a hydraulic power system that was fast and smooth. The power drive for the panther ran off a power takeoff from the drivetrain. If the engine had a heavy load and the power traverse was used it could stall the engine. Consequently many units had policies that the power traverse was not to be used. I've seen some reports that it was sometimes diconnected completly. I've seen reports where Panthers and Shermans had meeting engagements where the Sherman was able to slew the turret around and get killing shots off before the Panther could swing it's gun around. There are also cases where in narrow streets the Pnather could not swing it's gun around due to hitting buildings or trees

'Tommy Cooker' or 'Ronson' - Yes early Shermans tended to burn when hit by German AP rounds. This was not due to the gasoline fuel. The ammo stowage in early Shermans was high and in the side sponsons. This combined with a very effective HE filler used by the Germans in their AP rounds led to a large number of secondary explosions. An interim solution was applique armor that was applied to Shermans to put heavier protection over these areas (and a few others that were found). The British did not use an explosive filler in their AP rounds. They used either solid shot or American AP that had the explosive filler removed (I assume they were delivered with the cavity empty and that they did notactually remove the explosive charge that the Americans designed the rounds for). So even if a British tank penetrated a German tank all it did was punch a hole in the tank. There would be some secondary damage (There are very few places inside a tank you wouldn't hit some other equipment) but nothing like the explosive charge in the German round would cause.

'The German Tanks were better armored than the Sherman' - Yes. The Panther was about 45 tons compared to the Shermans 35 tons. Ten tons of weight is a lot of armor. The U.S. had to design the Sherman to be shipped half way around the world to be used. The Germans had to send a Panther 500-1000 miles from the factory, generally via rail or road shipment. The Americans had to plan un unloading Shermans in ports where the heavy lifting equipment was out of commision or across beaches where ther was no heavy cargo handling equipment at all. So they had to be able to unload using ships cargo gear. This limited the size of the vehicle.

The German tanks may have been better armored but the Sherman was much more reliable. The U.S. demanded much higher reliability from it's vehicles than other armies did. I believe this was due to two factors. Again the U.S. knew it would be operating at the end of a very long supply line. They would not be able to send tanks back to stateside depots for major maintenance. The Germans assumed that the tank would be returned to the factory for major overhauls. Also the American automotive industry was probably the most advanced in the world at the time they could mass produce heavy equipment to good tolerances better than anyone else in the world.

When the Sherman entered production there was supposed to be a heavy tank to compliment the Sherman. In 1941-42 the Sherman was as good as any other medium tank in the world. The M-6 Heavy tank was being tested but was given a lower priority than the Sherman and the Stuart.

The M-6 had problems with the transmission (it was probably at least as reliable as any other countries heavy tank but did not meat American reliability standards) and given the extreme shipping constraints of the 1942-early 44 period when they were attempting to build up an army in the U.K. in the face of the Uboat campaign it was decided to not give the very heavy M-6 (50-60 tons) a high priority.

When a heavy tank did become available logistics again reared its demanding head. The Pershing was wider than the Sherman. This meant that every Bailey Bridge would have to be modified or risk being damaged by the wider tracks of the Pershing. So they were held back until after most of the major rivers were crossed (and the port of Antwerp with it's heavy cargo gear was operational)

There was a very good article titled "Tank Myths" comparing the Sherman to it's chief rival for fame (not The Panther, the T-34) in the September/October 2001 issue of Armor by Charles M. Bailey the author of "Faint Praise" a book I have been looking for for a long time since it is considered to be one of the definitive books on US WWII tank development

I think only one other tank in WWII could even compare to the Sherman. The T-34 and the Sherman both started life at about the same time and continued to be built and improved throughout the war. The M4A3E8 was a far different tank from the M4A1 'Michael' that was originally delivered to the British in early '42

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:13 am
Post subject: Re: 1st Cav Museum at Ft Hood...

Bob, I'll play devil's advocate for the sake of discussion...

- bsmart


'The German Tanks were better armored than the Sherman' - Yes. The Panther was about 45 tons compared to the Shermans 35 tons. Ten tons of weight is a lot of armor. The U.S. had to design the Sherman to be shipped half way around the world to be used. The Germans had to send a Panther 500-1000 miles from the factory, generally via rail or road shipment. The Americans had to plan un unloading Shermans in ports where the heavy lifting equipment was out of commision or across beaches where ther was no heavy cargo handling equipment at all. So they had to be able to unload using ships cargo gear. This limited the size of the vehicle.


Hindsight being 20-20 and primary role of the Sherman as infantry support granted, but if the traditional wisdom holds true that it took 3-4 Shermans to take out 1 Panther or Tiger - doesnt that mean the US ended up shipping 105-140 tons per kill? Seems like a smaller number of heavy tanks, even in the Panther weight class, would have been more efficient - shipping-wise - than all those Shermans... In fact, it would seem like there was a lot of wasted tonnage shipped...

Even if you grant that the primary role of the Sherman was infantry support, seems like a high-low mix might have been appropriate. The heavier Panther-class tanks could have been offloaded using LSTs no? Even M6s and T23s, with heavier armor than the Sherman, might have been a good stop-gap measure until the Pershing arrived...


The M-6 had problems with the transmission (it was probably at least as reliable as any other countries heavy tank but did not meat American reliability standards) and given the extreme shipping constraints of the 1942-early 44 period when they were attempting to build up an army in the U.K. in the face of the Uboat campaign it was decided to not give the very heavy M-6 (50-60 tons) a high priority.


Again, hindsight 20-20, seems like M6s or T23s would have been a better use of shipping constraints than some of those Shermans...


When a heavy tank did become available logistics again reared its demanding head. The Pershing was wider than the Sherman. This meant that every Bailey Bridge would have to be modified or risk being damaged by the wider tracks of the Pershing. So they were held back until after most of the major rivers were crossed (and the port of Antwerp with it's heavy cargo gear was operational)


How come this was only a concern for the Americans? Sure, there are lots of stories of Tigers, etc not being able to cross bridges, but it doesnt seem like this was a big concern for the Germany army... Point being, if the Germans can get around the same rivers & bridges (admittedly in retreat), seems like Pershings could have done the same...


The M4A3E8 was a far different tank from the M4A1 'Michael' that was originally delivered to the British in early '42


Granted, but it has to seem that the Armor folks were a little too obsessive over the "tank" being an infantry support weapon. Even a mix of US Sherman Fireflies - not taking up more more weight at all, but with some additional ammo supply headaches - would have been a good decision. What would have been the impact of US mass-produced Fireflies been on the battlefield in 1944?

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:57 am
Post subject: Re: 1st Cav Museum at Ft Hood...

I'm having trouble with the multiple level quotes so

Did we actually need more shipping because it took multiple Shermans to handel a 'Cat' That assumes that if you had brought over a limited number of 'anti-Cat' tanks you would be able to have one where you needed it when you needed it. Isn't that similar to the Tank destroyer doctrine of having some unist who were supposed to hunt enemy tanks? Problem is you can't know where they would show up so everyone has to be ready to handle the enemy tanks.

Why was the logistics only a US problem (actually an allied problem) Well The defender has some options on when to drop bridges (unless the zoomies get them first :-)) And there were times when German tanks were trapped because bridges had been destroyed. And one of the factors that slowed down the German ardennes spearheads in December of 44 were the tenacious defense of bridges by American Engineer units.

I don't think the U.S. obscessed on 'infantry support' If anything I think they obcessed on 'Tanks shouldn't fight tanks' and the use of tanks as a breakthrough weapon to run rampant in the enemies backfield once a hole had been made in the line. In that role the reliable Sherman excelled.

The big problem would have been building enough 17pdrs. It would have taken too long to 'americanize' it to be built in American factories (The British weapons that were adapted for U.S. production had been decided on early in the war when they had the 12 months or so needed to ramp up production lines. I've always thought there should have been a 90mm Sherman. The M36 showed it would fit. It was already in U.S. production. so could have been incorporated much faster than a new British gun.

There was an offer by Ordnance to supply 100+ M6s (with 105mm guns, not howitzers but long guns) to Europe but the command didn't want the logistics issues.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:00 am
Post subject: Re: 1st Cav Museum at Ft Hood...

Hi Folks!

Good post Bob! Good counter post Neil!

A number of other factors that also impacted the Sherman, but then there is so much to the Sheman story, are:

the effect of General McNair on just about everything,
the mistaken belief that the 76mm and it's round could deal with Panther and Tiger tanks prior to June 6, 1944,
the mistaken doctrine that the tank destroyers could take care of all German armor,
the fact that combat engineer bridge units didn't have a pontoon bridge system in the ETO, until late 1944, that could safely support a vehicle as heavy as the Sherman on German rivers,

I am starting to get the feeling that we all need to get together and write a book about all the points and couter points of the Sherman. That way we can just link new guys like 'HF Evolution' over to it.

Bottom, line, it and the T34 won the war and that is the only thing that counts in the end. To 'HF Evolution' that comes from a CIA that once though much like your post.

Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.


Last edited by Roy_A_Lingle on Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:54 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum