±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 1017
Total: 1017
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Photo Gallery
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Home
10: Community Forums
11: Downloads
12: Community Forums
13: News Archive
14: Downloads
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Home
19: Member Screenshots
20: Photo Gallery
21: Community Forums
22: Search
23: Your Account
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: News Archive
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Home
35: Community Forums
36: CPGlang
37: Photo Gallery
38: Community Forums
39: CPGlang
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Home
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Home
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Photo Gallery
52: Photo Gallery
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Photo Gallery
56: Community Forums
57: Home
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Photo Gallery
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Photo Gallery
69: Home
70: Photo Gallery
71: Community Forums
72: Photo Gallery
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Photo Gallery
77: Community Forums
78: Home
79: News
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Downloads
83: Photo Gallery
84: Photo Gallery
85: Home
86: Photo Gallery
87: Community Forums
88: Your Account
89: Home
90: Your Account
91: Photo Gallery
92: Community Forums
93: Downloads
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Photo Gallery
104: Community Forums
105: Home
106: Downloads
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Downloads
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Your Account
115: Community Forums
116: News
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Statistics
121: Community Forums
122: Home
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Home
128: News Archive
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Photo Gallery
132: Community Forums
133: Home
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Home
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Downloads
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: CPGlang
145: Your Account
146: Home
147: Home
148: Downloads
149: Statistics
150: Your Account
151: Downloads
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Photo Gallery
155: Community Forums
156: Photo Gallery
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Home
163: Community Forums
164: Photo Gallery
165: Member Screenshots
166: Community Forums
167: Statistics
168: Home
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Home
172: Community Forums
173: Home
174: Home
175: Community Forums
176: Downloads
177: Photo Gallery
178: Community Forums
179: Home
180: Photo Gallery
181: Community Forums
182: Home
183: Community Forums
184: Home
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Home
189: Photo Gallery
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Photo Gallery
195: Statistics
196: Search
197: Community Forums
198: Photo Gallery
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Photo Gallery
204: Community Forums
205: Photo Gallery
206: CPGlang
207: Home
208: Community Forums
209: Member Screenshots
210: Community Forums
211: Member Screenshots
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Home
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Photo Gallery
218: Community Forums
219: Statistics
220: Home
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Photo Gallery
226: Community Forums
227: Home
228: Home
229: Downloads
230: Home
231: Community Forums
232: Member Screenshots
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Home
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: CPGlang
242: Community Forums
243: Downloads
244: Home
245: Home
246: Your Account
247: Community Forums
248: Home
249: Home
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Photo Gallery
253: Photo Gallery
254: Photo Gallery
255: Statistics
256: Photo Gallery
257: Home
258: Downloads
259: Photo Gallery
260: Home
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Home
264: Home
265: Statistics
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Home
270: Statistics
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Home
274: Home
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Photo Gallery
283: Community Forums
284: Downloads
285: Community Forums
286: Home
287: Community Forums
288: Photo Gallery
289: Downloads
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Home
294: Community Forums
295: Photo Gallery
296: Community Forums
297: Home
298: Community Forums
299: Home
300: Home
301: Photo Gallery
302: Photo Gallery
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: Home
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: CPGlang
311: Home
312: Home
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Photo Gallery
317: Community Forums
318: Photo Gallery
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Home
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Home
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Photo Gallery
331: Photo Gallery
332: Photo Gallery
333: Photo Gallery
334: Home
335: Community Forums
336: Home
337: Community Forums
338: Home
339: Home
340: Your Account
341: Home
342: Downloads
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Photo Gallery
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Home
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Photo Gallery
361: Community Forums
362: CPGlang
363: Community Forums
364: Home
365: Home
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Photo Gallery
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Photo Gallery
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Home
377: Community Forums
378: Photo Gallery
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Your Account
382: Photo Gallery
383: Photo Gallery
384: Home
385: Photo Gallery
386: Photo Gallery
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Photo Gallery
391: Statistics
392: Home
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Home
398: CPGlang
399: Community Forums
400: Home
401: Community Forums
402: Photo Gallery
403: Your Account
404: Home
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Photo Gallery
409: Community Forums
410: Your Account
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Photo Gallery
414: Community Forums
415: Downloads
416: Community Forums
417: CPGlang
418: Home
419: Home
420: Member Screenshots
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Home
426: Community Forums
427: Search
428: Community Forums
429: Your Account
430: Downloads
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Photo Gallery
437: Community Forums
438: Home
439: Photo Gallery
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Photo Gallery
444: Community Forums
445: Home
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: News Archive
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Photo Gallery
455: Home
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Photo Gallery
459: Community Forums
460: Statistics
461: Community Forums
462: Home
463: Statistics
464: Community Forums
465: Photo Gallery
466: Community Forums
467: Photo Gallery
468: Community Forums
469: Member Screenshots
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Photo Gallery
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Home
479: Community Forums
480: Photo Gallery
481: Community Forums
482: Statistics
483: Home
484: Downloads
485: Home
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Home
490: Your Account
491: Community Forums
492: Photo Gallery
493: Community Forums
494: Home
495: Community Forums
496: Photo Gallery
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Downloads
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Photo Gallery
505: Photo Gallery
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Member Screenshots
509: Community Forums
510: Photo Gallery
511: Photo Gallery
512: Statistics
513: Your Account
514: CPGlang
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Home
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Photo Gallery
521: CPGlang
522: Member Screenshots
523: Community Forums
524: Downloads
525: News Archive
526: Home
527: Community Forums
528: Photo Gallery
529: Community Forums
530: Photo Gallery
531: Member Screenshots
532: Community Forums
533: Photo Gallery
534: Statistics
535: CPGlang
536: Community Forums
537: News
538: Community Forums
539: Photo Gallery
540: Downloads
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Home
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Home
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Photo Gallery
555: Home
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Photo Gallery
560: Home
561: Home
562: Home
563: Community Forums
564: Statistics
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Photo Gallery
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Photo Gallery
571: Downloads
572: Member Screenshots
573: Community Forums
574: Photo Gallery
575: Photo Gallery
576: Community Forums
577: Photo Gallery
578: Community Forums
579: Photo Gallery
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Photo Gallery
586: Home
587: Community Forums
588: Home
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Member Screenshots
593: Photo Gallery
594: Community Forums
595: Home
596: Statistics
597: Home
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Photo Gallery
603: Community Forums
604: Photo Gallery
605: Downloads
606: Community Forums
607: Downloads
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums
610: Home
611: Community Forums
612: Community Forums
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Downloads
616: Community Forums
617: Community Forums
618: Photo Gallery
619: Home
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: Community Forums
623: Downloads
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: Photo Gallery
627: Community Forums
628: Home
629: Home
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: Community Forums
634: Community Forums
635: Home
636: Community Forums
637: Community Forums
638: Community Forums
639: Statistics
640: Photo Gallery
641: Community Forums
642: Member Screenshots
643: Photo Gallery
644: Community Forums
645: Statistics
646: Community Forums
647: Home
648: Member Screenshots
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Home
652: Home
653: Photo Gallery
654: Community Forums
655: Home
656: Home
657: Community Forums
658: Community Forums
659: Community Forums
660: Home
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: Photo Gallery
664: Community Forums
665: Community Forums
666: Community Forums
667: Home
668: Community Forums
669: Community Forums
670: CPGlang
671: Home
672: Home
673: Photo Gallery
674: Home
675: Downloads
676: Photo Gallery
677: Community Forums
678: Community Forums
679: Community Forums
680: Community Forums
681: Community Forums
682: Community Forums
683: Community Forums
684: Home
685: Community Forums
686: Home
687: Home
688: Community Forums
689: Community Forums
690: Community Forums
691: Community Forums
692: Your Account
693: Community Forums
694: Community Forums
695: Your Account
696: Community Forums
697: Community Forums
698: Photo Gallery
699: Community Forums
700: Photo Gallery
701: Home
702: Community Forums
703: Statistics
704: Home
705: Home
706: Community Forums
707: Photo Gallery
708: Community Forums
709: Downloads
710: Home
711: Community Forums
712: Community Forums
713: Community Forums
714: Community Forums
715: Home
716: Community Forums
717: Community Forums
718: Community Forums
719: Community Forums
720: Community Forums
721: Community Forums
722: Community Forums
723: Community Forums
724: Community Forums
725: Community Forums
726: Community Forums
727: Community Forums
728: Community Forums
729: Home
730: Community Forums
731: Photo Gallery
732: Community Forums
733: Community Forums
734: Community Forums
735: Community Forums
736: Home
737: Home
738: Community Forums
739: Your Account
740: Downloads
741: CPGlang
742: Community Forums
743: Community Forums
744: Community Forums
745: Photo Gallery
746: Home
747: Member Screenshots
748: Community Forums
749: Community Forums
750: Downloads
751: Photo Gallery
752: Community Forums
753: Community Forums
754: Photo Gallery
755: Community Forums
756: Photo Gallery
757: Community Forums
758: Community Forums
759: Downloads
760: Home
761: Community Forums
762: Community Forums
763: Community Forums
764: Community Forums
765: Home
766: Home
767: Community Forums
768: Community Forums
769: Community Forums
770: Community Forums
771: Photo Gallery
772: Community Forums
773: Community Forums
774: Home
775: Community Forums
776: Member Screenshots
777: Photo Gallery
778: Photo Gallery
779: Community Forums
780: Downloads
781: Photo Gallery
782: Your Account
783: Photo Gallery
784: Home
785: Member Screenshots
786: Community Forums
787: Community Forums
788: Community Forums
789: Community Forums
790: Home
791: Community Forums
792: Community Forums
793: Photo Gallery
794: Photo Gallery
795: Community Forums
796: Community Forums
797: Home
798: Community Forums
799: Downloads
800: Community Forums
801: Community Forums
802: Community Forums
803: Community Forums
804: Community Forums
805: Community Forums
806: Community Forums
807: Community Forums
808: Community Forums
809: Community Forums
810: Community Forums
811: Home
812: Community Forums
813: Your Account
814: Community Forums
815: Home
816: Statistics
817: Home
818: Community Forums
819: Community Forums
820: Home
821: Community Forums
822: Photo Gallery
823: Community Forums
824: Community Forums
825: Community Forums
826: Community Forums
827: Community Forums
828: Community Forums
829: Photo Gallery
830: Community Forums
831: Community Forums
832: Community Forums
833: Member Screenshots
834: Community Forums
835: Community Forums
836: Downloads
837: Community Forums
838: Community Forums
839: Community Forums
840: Community Forums
841: Community Forums
842: Home
843: Community Forums
844: Photo Gallery
845: Photo Gallery
846: Home
847: Community Forums
848: Community Forums
849: Community Forums
850: Community Forums
851: Community Forums
852: Community Forums
853: Community Forums
854: Community Forums
855: Community Forums
856: Community Forums
857: Community Forums
858: Community Forums
859: News Archive
860: Your Account
861: Community Forums
862: Community Forums
863: Community Forums
864: Photo Gallery
865: Community Forums
866: Downloads
867: Community Forums
868: Home
869: Photo Gallery
870: Community Forums
871: Community Forums
872: Community Forums
873: Community Forums
874: Community Forums
875: Community Forums
876: News Archive
877: Home
878: Community Forums
879: Statistics
880: Community Forums
881: Community Forums
882: Photo Gallery
883: Photo Gallery
884: Statistics
885: Photo Gallery
886: Community Forums
887: Community Forums
888: Photo Gallery
889: Community Forums
890: Community Forums
891: Community Forums
892: Community Forums
893: Community Forums
894: Community Forums
895: Photo Gallery
896: Home
897: Community Forums
898: Home
899: Photo Gallery
900: Community Forums
901: Community Forums
902: Community Forums
903: Photo Gallery
904: Community Forums
905: Community Forums
906: Community Forums
907: Community Forums
908: Community Forums
909: Home
910: Community Forums
911: Community Forums
912: Home
913: Member Screenshots
914: Community Forums
915: Your Account
916: Community Forums
917: Community Forums
918: Community Forums
919: Community Forums
920: Photo Gallery
921: Photo Gallery
922: CPGlang
923: Community Forums
924: Community Forums
925: Photo Gallery
926: Community Forums
927: Home
928: Photo Gallery
929: Community Forums
930: Community Forums
931: Community Forums
932: Community Forums
933: Community Forums
934: Community Forums
935: Home
936: Your Account
937: Community Forums
938: Your Account
939: Community Forums
940: Community Forums
941: Community Forums
942: Photo Gallery
943: Community Forums
944: Downloads
945: Community Forums
946: Your Account
947: Photo Gallery
948: Photo Gallery
949: Community Forums
950: Community Forums
951: Community Forums
952: Photo Gallery
953: Community Forums
954: Downloads
955: Community Forums
956: Community Forums
957: Community Forums
958: Downloads
959: Community Forums
960: Community Forums
961: Home
962: Member Screenshots
963: Statistics
964: Community Forums
965: Home
966: Home
967: Community Forums
968: Community Forums
969: Photo Gallery
970: Community Forums
971: Home
972: Photo Gallery
973: Community Forums
974: Home
975: CPGlang
976: Statistics
977: Community Forums
978: Community Forums
979: Statistics
980: Photo Gallery
981: Community Forums
982: Downloads
983: Community Forums
984: Community Forums
985: CPGlang
986: Home
987: Community Forums
988: Community Forums
989: Community Forums
990: Member Screenshots
991: Community Forums
992: Community Forums
993: Community Forums
994: Community Forums
995: Home
996: Community Forums
997: Community Forums
998: Community Forums
999: Community Forums
1000: Community Forums
1001: Community Forums
1002: Member Screenshots
1003: Member Screenshots
1004: Community Forums
1005: Statistics
1006: Photo Gallery
1007: Community Forums
1008: Community Forums
1009: Photo Gallery
1010: Community Forums
1011: Community Forums
1012: Your Account
1013: Photo Gallery
1014: Member Screenshots
1015: Community Forums
1016: Photo Gallery
1017: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Any insights into how the Israelis fought in Lebanon?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:47 am
Post subject: Any insights into how the Israelis fought in Lebanon?

I have been following the OSINT (open source Int) on Lebanon, and have come to a few conclusions.

The 155 gun lines made up most of the video the IDF allowed. Some shots of guys standing on their Merkavas and T55 APCs, manouevering them in leaguers, shots of tired infantry, rising plumes from aircraft bombing, and the odd HUD footage. Maybe some missile smoke trails going into Israel. Distinctly absent was any combat footage. The only intriguing image I saw was of an Anti Tank hit on a Merkava. Dust and smoke and a few guys jumping out.

Then, in the Tuesday Ottawa is a story from The Daily Telegraph of captured Russian-made, Syrian-contract Kornet AT missiles and AT-5 Spandrels, possibly Iranian copies. The story concludes with remarks that the sophisticated AT weapons are believed to have accounted for many of the 116 IDF fatalities, and how there was a carefully prepared network of concealed ambush sites waiting for the IDF as it advanced.

Would anyone care to jump in with links or other stories.
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:16 am
Post subject: Re: Any insights into how the Israelis fought in Lebanon?

Have the Israelis claimed they were Kornet missiles, or just the media?

Remember, there were erroneous reports of Kornet-E missiles in Iraq during the initial combat ops of OIF - the Abrams in question turned out to have been hit in the rear by "friendly" 25mm fire from a Bradley...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:47 am
Post subject: Re: Any insights into how the Israelis fought in Lebanon?

The story is based around the IDF capture of GHANDOURIYEH, east of TYRE on Sunday night and the display of weapons by the IDF. At least 24 IDF soldiers were killed in the advance. Outside of one of the two mosques was a red van with 8 1.8m long green casings, identifiable by their seial numbers as Spandrels (how is not explained). In a garden in the eastern part of the village was an outpost with eight Kornets abandoned by Hezbollah, and described by the Brig. Mickey Edelstein, commander of the Nahal toops. The markings on the casings were described as:
"(contract number)
Customer: Ministry of Defence of Syria.
Supplier" KBP, Tula, Russia."

English was the default marking on Iraqi weapons and equipment and Jordanian ammo boxes I saw in Kuwait City in '91. So English on Arab contracts is not unusual.
Back to top
View user's profile
LavTech
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Any insights into how the Israelis fought in Lebanon?

This is a little long, sorry about that !, but it is somewhat informative regarding Missile attacks against IDF tanks.
It's from Jane's Defence

Key Points:

* The IDF has encountered a wide array of ATGMs since its incursion into south Lebanon, including the Kornet-E 9P133, Metis-M 9M131, the 9K113 Konkurs (AT-5 'Spandrel') and the 9K111 Fagot (AT-4 'Spigot')

* More than 20 IDF personnel have been killed by ATGMs since the start of the conflict

An arsenal of advanced Russian-made anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) is emerging as the most effective weapon being deployed by the Islamic Resistance's (the military wing of the Lebanese Shi'ite Party of God - Hizbullah) against Israeli forces in southern Lebanon.

"It is the most extensive encounter between Israeli armour and Russian-made ATGMs since the October 1973 war," retired brigadier general Avigdor Klein, a recent chief armour officer in the Israel Defence Force (IDF), told Jane's.

The IDF has encountered a wide array of ATGMs since its incursion into south Lebanon.
These include the Kornet-E 9P133, claimed to be able to penetrate 1-1.2 m of armour protected by explosive reactive armour (ERA); the Metis-M 9M131, equipped with a tandem high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) warhead; the 9K113 Konkurs (AT-5 Spandrel) and the 9K111 Fagot (AT-4 'Spigot') ATGMs.

"This massive supply of ATGMs reaffirms our concerns that advanced Russian weapons sold to Syria were forwarded to Hizbullah," a senior Israeli defence source told Jane's. Iran manufactures its own version of the Konkurs, the Towsan-1/M113 and has also developed improved versions of the 9K11 Malyutka (AT-3 'Sagger') under the local name of Raad, both of which have surfaced with Hizbullah in Lebanon.

During the first month of fighting, 13 IDF armour personnel were killed by ATGM hits on Israel's most protected main battle tanks (MBTs); the Merkava Mk 2, 3, and 4.

"To put it in perspective," said a senior IDF source, "out of more than 500 ATGMs fired at us in the first month of fighting, only some 40 tanks sustained hits, with 10 being penetrated."

IDF commanders defined the Russian ATGMs as their "most dangerous challenge" in the fighting. "We are paying a heavy price to the ATGMs," admitted Major General Udi Adam, head of the IDF's Northern Command.

Several senior IDF sources have expressed disappointment in the IDF's decision to defer the procurement of Rafael Armament Development Authority's Trophy armour protection system (APS), which they believe could have turned the odds in the fighting.
"When we designed the Merkava Mk 4, we realised that the ERA is not sufficient to protect from advanced Russian ATGMs and that's why the Mk 4 was designed to carry an APS," said Klein, who is currently employed by Rafael.

"The Mk 4 provides excellent protection from all missiles in most of the tank's sectors, but some sectors are vulnerable to the advanced missiles. "An APS such as the Trophy could have defeated all ATGM threats," claimed another defence source. "Moreover, it would have required the designers of ATGMs to develop a whole new concept for anti-tank missiles."

IDF field commanders echo these claims. "The decision not to acquire an APS was simply a matter of wrong priorities. It could have completely changed the pace of our advancement in Lebanon and save lives," said Gen Adam.

"Nonetheless, if it wasn't for the high level of protection inherent in the Merkava design, the results could have been worse. You have to recognise how many lives the Merkavas' armour have saved."

While Hizbullah anti-tank teams appear well-trained and familiar with the MBTs weak spots, some of their successful hits are attributed to the tactics employed by the IDF in the first weeks of the fighting.

"Most of the armoured units were deployed on rescue and covering missions, rather than leading a wide offensive," said Klein. "This is contradictory to the IDF armour doctrine and unnecessarily exposed the tanks to the missiles.

"The small formations used to take over the small south Lebanese villages were unsuited for the threat," he added. "Employing the right tactics could significantly reduce the number of tanks hit.

"We were attacked by hundreds of ATGMs," Colonel Amnon Asulin, commander of the IDF's Sa'ar Armoured Brigade 7, told Jane's.

"These were young troops who were sent there, inexperienced in that kind of warfare, but as they are gaining experience and become familiar with the terrain they also adapt and improve their tactics."

"We were amazed by the vast quantity of weapons that we've discovered and encountered in Lebanon," said Gen Adam, "but we are becoming more efficient at dealing with them."

In the 1973 Yom Kippur War, Israeli armour was surprised by the quantity and efficiency of Egyptian and Syrian anti-tank teams, equipped with Russian-made Sagger ATGMs, which caused severe damage to hundreds of tanks.

"Hizbullah is not the same kind of surprise," said Gen Adam. "It only requires some adaptation from us."

At the same time, Israel is launching a diplomatic effort to stop Russian arms sales to Syria. "For years, we have been warning the Russians that their weapons would end up in the hands of Hizbullah, while they claimed to be selling arms only to responsible states," a senior diplomatic source told Jane's. "This has clearly proved to be false."
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Any insights into how the Israelis fought in Lebanon?

Hi Folks!

I think the 155 units showing up on news reports was because that was as far forward as the IDF was letting reporters go. I remember one CNN report done by a In-bedded reporter who was part of a combat raid. He claimed that was the first time the IDF had ever done that. I guess it may have been the only time it was done.

One thing I noticed was a lot of the Merkavas didn't have the passive armor on the turrets. I think I did see ONE, and only one Merkava with a Trophy armour protection system (APS) and that was last week during the count down to the cease fire. I am suprise to hear that the IDF didn't buy the Trophy APS system for their vehicles. I guess that is another one of those cases of not enough funds for everything.

My first impression is that the Hizbullah emplaced a wide area ambush for armored forces and did a fare job of pulling it off during the first few weeks.

My first impression is the IDF tried to relie on RPV recon drones to much in an effort to reduce their losses. In the long term, it didn't work as well as them though it would. Troop losses were higher that they were willing to pay and a lot of very bad press was made available to support the Hizbullah.

I think this latest round of combat between a conventional heavy military force and a light infantry force will need a lot of study. I also think the Hizbullah fighters did a much better job of holding ground that most folks though they should have been able to do.

In a number of ways, that fight reminds me of the battles between the U.S. Navy and the Japanese kamikazes during the last year of the Pacific war. Sad

My 2 cents on just the military points. Confused
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:09 am
Post subject: Re: Any insights into how the Israelis fought in Lebanon?

I remember hearing (on the radio, from a former IDF officer) that Hizbollah was using ATGMs for all sorts of things not related to killing tanks. Apparently, they would shoot them at stuff as minor as one Israeli soldier moving across a hilltop. The point to this was that they had used a tremendous number of missiles, and that Syria and Iran were likely to experience considerable fiscal pain to replace the large amount of ordnance that Hizbollah had expended.

I suppose we'll see how true that really is, over the next few years.

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
buglerbilly
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:55 am
Post subject: Re: Any insights into how the Israelis fought in Lebanon?

The point to this was that they had used a tremendous number of missiles, and that Syria and Iran were likely to experience considerable fiscal pain to replace the large amount of ordnance that Hizbollah had expended.


With Oil at what $70+ per barrel, I doubt whether Iran could give a damn especially when they perceive themselves as having the ability to "humiliate" Israel and hence the USA without suffering anything more than the loss of some money which they will replace in what? A week or so?

The fact that Arabs are dying and not Persians just adds to the irony of it all.

Regards,

BUG
Back to top
View user's profile
buglerbilly
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:54 am
Post subject: Re: Any insights into how the Israelis fought in Lebanon?

Israel introspective after Lebanon offensive

An introspective account of the conflict by Alon Ben-David JDW Correspondent
Tel Aviv

You have to subscribe to get the full version, which I doubt I ever will NOT at their prices!!!

The Israeli government approved the launch of an aerial campaign against Hizbullah to achieve three goals: to create the conditions of return of the abductees; to damage Hizbullah's military capabilities; and to push the Lebanese government to accept UN Security Council Resolution 1559 and assume sovereignty in southern Lebanon.

The result, however, was an indecisive operation, which was conducted ad hoc rather than based on a comprehensive plan, and which revealed a series of flaws within the Israel Defence Force (IDF), including:


- The reserve army, the IDF's main ground force, was exposed in the campaign as an insufficiently trained and equipped force. Years of negligence, due to budgetary constraints, brought highly motivated but sometimes poorly equipped units into Lebanon. "We have been warning for years on the deterioration of the reserve army, through its lack of training," claimed Gen Halutz. There's a consensus among senior IDF officers that the reserves will have to undergo a significant upgrade effort.

- The anti-tank threat emerged as the most serious challenge to the IDF. Operating Kornet-E and Metis-M anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs), Hizbullah successfully destroyed 14 Israeli Merkava Mk 2, 3 and 4 main battle tanks. In response, the Israeli MoD has ordered Rafael Armament Development Authority to accelerate preparations for production of its Trophy active protection system (APS) for future IDF procurement. Israel Military Industries has also been asked to complete development of its APS, dubbed Iron Fist, for IDF evaluation.

- Military intelligence provided information about Hizbullah capabilities, both in artillery rockets and in ATGMs. However, it was not able to provide the IDF with accurate intelligence on the whereabouts of Hizbullah's political and military leadership, which the IDF wished to target. Also, field commanders claimed, information on Hizbullah's ground alignment of tunnels and bunkers in southern Lebanon was insufficient.

The next round

Israel fears that Hizbullah's success in operating Syrian- and Iranian-supplied weapons could accelerate additional procurement of such systems and might encourage Syria to experiment with a military confrontation.

With Israel fearing that the recent conflict with Hizbullah will not be the last and could also mark the prelude for a future confrontation with Iran, calls are growing for a quick rehabilitation of the IDF to prepare it for what could be the "next round".

376 of 1,778 words

© 2006 Jane's Information Group
[End of non-subscriber extract]

Regards,

BUG
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Any insights into how the Israelis fought in Lebanon?

- buglerbilly

- The reserve army, the IDF's main ground force, was exposed in the campaign as an insufficiently trained and equipped force. Years of negligence, due to budgetary constraints, brought highly motivated but sometimes poorly equipped units into Lebanon. "We have been warning for years on the deterioration of the reserve army, through its lack of training," claimed Gen Halutz. There's a consensus among senior IDF officers that the reserves will have to undergo a significant upgrade effort.


...and apparently, some reservists are "up in arms" about it, so to speak:

www.latimes.com/news/n...-headlines

(Read the full story at the link above)

"Israel Regroups on Approach to War Inquiry
The government pulls the plug on its panel while Olmert considers whether to heed calls for a broader probe. Troops push for resignations.
By Henry Chu, Times Staff Writer
August 23, 2006


JERUSALEM � After one day's work, the Israeli government suspended its review of the way it conducted the war in Lebanon, officials said Tuesday, as scores of reserve soldiers back from the fighting rallied here to press for the resignation of top political figures.

The Defense Ministry halted the work of its war review committee Monday to give Prime Minister Ehud Olmert more time to decide whether to authorize a fuller examination of Israel's monthlong air campaign and ground incursion against the Shiite Muslim militant group Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Calls for a more aggressive and independent inquiry have grown louder daily as anger here over what some call indecisive and incompetent wartime leadership has snowballed since a cease-fire took effect last week.

Some of the harshest criticism has come from military reservists, whose voices carry great weight in Israeli society. The veterans protesting in Jerusalem on Tuesday evening demanded that Olmert, his defense minister and the army's chief of staff step down.

The demonstrators accused the three of rushing into full-scale armed conflict without having adequately laid the military groundwork, and then of dithering over the war's objectives and how to realize them. That resulted in confusing and sometimes needlessly perilous orders on the ground, they said.


"The big heads should be the ones to go," said Yossi Avigor, 29, a reserve infantryman who spent two weeks fighting in western Lebanon. "They tried, they failed, they should go home."

Families of fallen soldiers, as well as civic groups upset by the state's treatment of northern Israelis who spent weeks under attack from Hezbollah rockets, also have castigated the nation's leaders. The opposition from so many quarters has presented Olmert's young government with its severest crisis in less than four months in power
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
buglerbilly
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:43 am
Post subject: Re: Any insights into how the Israelis fought in Lebanon?

Full report via a friend.............the losses are interesting (if that is the right term to use Crying or Very sad )

JDW Aug 23, 2006
Posted: 18-Aug-2006

Israel introspective after Lebanon offensive

An introspective account of the conflict by ALON BEN-DAVID JDW Correspondent
Tel Aviv

As Israel started to withdraw its forces from Lebanese territory on 17 August, there were growing calls from the Israeli public demanding an investigation of what is perceived as a series of failures in the current campaign.

Although the Israeli political and military leadership claim the goals of the offensive against the Islamic Resistance (the armed wing of the Lebanese Shi'ite Party of God - Hizbullah) were achieved in UN Security Council Resolution 1701, the majority of the Israeli public believes the Israel Defence Force (IDF) failed to obtain the objectives set for the operation.

In response to growing public pressure, and perhaps in an attempt to impede a public inquiry committee, Israeli Defence Minister Amir Peretz has established a commission of inquiry that will examine the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and IDF's conduct before and during the conflict.

IDF Chief of Staff Lieutenant General Dan Halutz has also indicated he intends to appoint an internal IDF inquiry. Internal inquiries can never scrutinise the officials who initiate them, however a public commission of inquiry bears the authority of the Israeli Supreme Court and examines performance and decision-making process at all levels.

While most of Israel's post-war inquiry committees tended to spare the political echelon and placed the onus on the military levels, it is clear in this instance why Israel's inexperienced prime minister and defence minister are reluctant to appoint such an inquiry, let alone the IDF Chief of Staff.

Gen Halutz came under severe public criticism after it was revealed that he had sold his entire stock portfolio just hours after the abduction of two IDF personnel on 12 July: a time when the IDF was preparing for war.

With the confidence of Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Israeli Defence Minister Amid Peret's backing, Gen Halutz rejected accusations of misconduct, saying that he "like any other civilian, has a household to manage".

Aside from personal allegations, IDF soldiers now returning from Lebanon are revealing the inside stories of the conflict, shedding more than a shred of doubt on the IDF's readiness for the war and its conduct during the fighting.

"We are winning the war," Olmert declared several times in the last weeks of the conflict, but Israelis now appear to feel anything but victorious. However, both politicians and senior IDF commanders agree that Israel enjoyed unprecedented international support in the campaign, combined with a solid internal consensus, both of which underscore the question of the IDF's failure to achieve the campaign's objectives.

'Aerial dominance' failure

As recently as June, the IDF held an exercise based on a scenario in which an incident whereby Hizbullah kidnapped an IDF soldier quickly develops into a wide-scale conflict in Lebanon. During the exercise, the IDF launch a week-long air and land stand-off campaign against Hizbullah, as the Shi'ite militia respond with rocket attacks on Israeli towns. After a week of air strikes and artillery, the IDF launch a ground operation, with three divisions taking over southern Lebanon and beginning a four-week cleansing operation to destroy Hizbullah's presence in the area.

On 12 July that scenario materialised with the abduction of two IDF servicemen during patrol along the Lebanese border. The IDF immediately recommended a massive operation, which will "set Lebanon back 20 years" as Gen Halutz phrased it.

The Israeli government approved the launch of an aerial campaign against Hizbullah to achieve three goals: to create the conditions of return of the abductees; to damage Hizbullah's military capabilities; and to push the Lebanese government to accept UN Security Council Resolution 1559 and assume sovereignty in southern Lebanon.

The IDF, while translating the directive into an operational plan, added another objective: to strengthen Israel's deterrent image. From that moment on, reality departed the exercise's scenario and the IDF's standing plans for a conflict in Lebanon were never executed.

Israel launched an aerial campaign, which for the first two weeks did little to reduce the rain of rockets Hizbullah poured daily on Israeli towns. After two weeks, a local skirmish along the border drew two IDF brigades into a long bloody battle in the village of Marun Al-Ras and later to the town of Bint Jbeil. By the fourth week, three IDF divisions were operating in Lebanon, struggling against Hizbullah's first line of defence - the Nasser brigade. Only on the 29th day did the Israeli Cabinet approve the expansion of the operation, which was initiated on 11 August - just hours before the UN approved a ceasefire resolution.

On the 33rd day, 13 August, when the ceasefire took effect, Hizbullah was still active in southern Lebanon and capable of launching more than 200 rockets on Israel, while the IDF still could not control southern Lebanon.

"Up until the fourth week, the IDF had not recommended a wider ground operation," claims Olmert, insinuating that Gen Halutz was opting for an aerial campaign, believing that Israel's "aerial dominance" could subdue Hizbullah.

"I never said an aerial campaign would suffice to prevail," Gen Halutz claimed. "The original plan was to combine an aerial campaign with a ground manoeuvre."

The result, however, was an indecisive operation, which was conducted ad hoc rather than based on a comprehensive plan, and which revealed a series of flaws within the IDF, including:

The reserve army, the IDF's main ground force, was exposed in the campaign as an insufficiently trained and equipped force. Years of negligence, due to budgetary constraints, brought highly motivated but sometimes poorly equipped units into Lebanon. "We have been warning for years on the deterioration of the reserve army, through its lack of training," claimed Gen Halutz. There's a consensus among senior IDF officers that the reserves will have to undergo a significant upgrade effort.
The anti-tank threat emerged as the most serious challenge to the IDF. Operating Kornet-E and Metis-M anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs), Hizbullah successfully destroyed 14 Israeli Merkava Mk 2, 3 and 4 main battle tanks (MBTs). In response, the Israeli MoD has ordered Rafael Armament Development Authority to accelerate preparations for production of its Trophy active protection system (APS) for future IDF procurement. Israel Military Industries (IMI) has also been asked to complete development of its APS, dubbed Iron Fist, for IDF evaluation.
The Israel Air Force (IAF) is considered to have been the most successful service in fulfiling its goals. With more than 10,000 fighter sorties, the IAF attacked more than 7,000 targets in Lebanon, initiating its new F-16I Soufa multirole fighters, which took significant part in the campaign. Based on accurate intelligence, the IAF is believed to have destroyed more than 50 per cent of Hizbullah's arsenal of long-range rockets in the first hour of the campaign. Striking storage facilities and launchers of the Zelzal 1 and 2, the Fajr 3 and 5, the Raad 1 and Khaibar 1 rockets, Hizbullah was capable of launching only several dozen longer-range rockets during the war. "Moreover, 90 per cent of long-range rocket launchers which fired were destroyed immediately after [launching their salvos]," a senior IAF source told Jane's. However, IDF field commanders have complained about insufficient air support during the ground battles, mostly of attack helicopters, as a result of the anti-aircraft missiles threat.
Military intelligence provided information about Hizbullah capabilities, both in artillery rockets and in ATGMs. However, it was not able to provide the IDF with accurate intelligence on the whereabouts of Hizbullah's political and military leadership, which the IDF wished to target. Also, field commanders claimed, information on Hizbullah's ground alignment of tunnels and bunkers in southern Lebanon was insufficient.
Rocket threats proved impossible to suppress from the air, nor was it easy from the ground. However this lesson is not new to Israel, which has been dealing with artillery rockets from Lebanon and the Gaza Strip for years. Nevertheless, Peretz has ordered a re-examination of potential protection systems, such as the Nautilus project - based on the Tactical High Energy Laser.
The Israel Navy (IN) suffered a severe blow in the war, with its Sa'ar 5 class flagship, INS Hanit, hit by an Iranian-made C-802 'Noor' anti-ship-guided missile. "The Hanit's multi-layered protection systems were not activated at the time of the attack as we were not aware of such threats in the Lebanese arena," a senior IN source told Jane's. While the Hanit did not sink, IN sources acknowledge that the incident could impact upon the IN's plans for future procurement of additional corvettes.
The IDF's Logistics Corps failed to supply some units inside Lebanon during the fighting with food, water and ammunition. "In some cases we couldn't secure a land route for supplies so we sought other ways, such as airlift supplies," said Major General Avi Mizrahi, Head of IDF Logistics Directorate. "We have found ourselves operating without a logistical tail," an IDF field commander told Jane's.

The next round

"We cannot ignore that some Arab countries consider Hizbullah's resistance to the IDF a success," a senior IDF source admitted. The IDF fears that the ongoing fighting by Hizbullah against IDF tanks and infantry in Lebanon's southern villages is perceived in the Arab world, particularly in Syria, as a sign of Israeli weakness.

"In this respect I cannot say we have deepened our deterrent image," added the source.

Indeed, Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad praised Hizbullah for "defeating the Israeli Army" in a speech in Damascus on 15 August, pledging to "liberate the Golan Heights by our own hands". Attempting to circumvent IAF and armour superiority, Syria has for years invested in ATGMs instead of tanks, in surface-to-surface missiles, which could threaten the Israeli rear, and in surface-to-air missile systems that could challenge the IAF.

Israel fears that Hizbullah's success in operating Syrian- and Iranian-supplied weapons could accelerate additional procurement of such systems and might encourage Syria to experiment with a military confrontation.

With Israel fearing that the recent conflict with Hizbullah will not be the last and could also mark the prelude for a future confrontation with Iran, calls are growing for a quick rehabilitation of the IDF to prepare it for what could be the "next round".

The war in numbers

33 days of fighting
Israeli casualties: 119 servicemen, 41 civilians
Lebanese casualties: At least 900 civilians and 500 Hizbullah fighters
Rockets fired on Israel: 3,970
Israel Air Force sorties: 15,500
Targets struck in Lebanon: 7,000
Hizbullah rocket launchers destroyed: 126
Israeli MBTs destroyed: 20 (6 to mines and 14 to ATGMs - they were all Merkava Mk 2,3 or 4s)
IAF aircraft shot down: 1
IAF aircraft lost in accidents: 4
Israel Navy operational hours: 8,000
IDF Artillery shells fired: more than 100,000

Source: Israel Defence Force


Regards,

BUG
Back to top
View user's profile
Hellfish6
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
Posts: 151
Location: Orlando
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Any insights into how the Israelis fought in Lebanon?

Israel had an aircraft shot down?
Back to top
View user's profile
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Any insights into how the Israelis fought in Lebanon?

Israel had a 'something' shot down. I saw the news footage. Something spiraling in flames from the sky over Beirut. Initial reports said F16. Later reports said drone.

14 tanks lost to ATGMs. Ouch.
Back to top
View user's profile
Hellfish6
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
Posts: 151
Location: Orlando
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Any insights into how the Israelis fought in Lebanon?

How many M-1s were lost in the invasion part of OIF1?
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum