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Stu, StuG 40 and StuG III
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:20 pm
Post subject: Stu, StuG 40 and StuG III

Hello everybody,

I just finished the biggest of the work concerning surviving panzers I to VI, but I'm confronted to some difficulties with a significative variant of the Panzer III : the Sturmgeschütz.
I just can't make the difference between the StuG 40 and the StuG III. I've read many articles on the web, which explains one thing and its opposite.. So, is there any chance to be able to recognize a StuG 40 from a StuG III by only seeing a photo of it?

P-O

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armyjunk2
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Stu, StuG 40 and StuG III

Hello, Do you have a copy of German Tanks of World War II by von Senger und Eetterlin? He says the the cupola towards the rear is the main difference. but the short gun or howitzer is a give away also. hope this is of some help....I can scan the pages for you.........AJ2
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JeffStringer
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Stu, StuG 40 and StuG III

The number "40" indicates that the vehicle is a Sturmgeschutz III with the longer Sturmkanone 40.

It pertains only to F, F/8 and G models with the long gun.


Jeff
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armyjunk2
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Stu, StuG 40 and StuG III

German Tanks of World War II list the following variants
later ones seem to have the cupola

7.5cm StuK L24 (Sd Kfz 142)
10.5cm StuH 42 L28.3 (Sd Kfz 142/2)
7.5cm StuK 40 L/48 (Sd Kfz 142/1)
7.5cm KwK L/3 (Sd Kfz 142)
7.5cm StuK L/40 L/43(Sd Kfz 142/1)

I think I would put all of them together in one PDF, thats how I file them
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JeffStringer
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:44 am
Post subject: Re: Stu, StuG 40 and StuG III

All Sturmgeschutz III's with the cupola are the G models ... regardless of what gun they have. If they carry the L/43 or the L/48 (long gun), it is a StuG 40.

Any Sturmgeschutz III with the shorter gun are referred to as the StuH 42, or officially a Sturmhaubitze.




Jeff
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:29 am
Post subject: Re: Stu, StuG 40 and StuG III

- JeffStringer

Any Sturmgeschutz III with the shorter gun are referred to as the StuH 42, or officially a Sturmhaubitze.




Jeff


I'm not sure I agree with this. I think a vehicle with the 75mm L24 would be a StuG not a StuH. I thought the StuH designation was only those vehicles with the 105mm weapon.

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JeffStringer
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:41 am
Post subject: Re: Stu, StuG 40 and StuG III

You're right Bob. I guess I got a little ahead of myself on that one.

But all III's with the long gun were referrred to as the StuG 40.


Jeff
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:45 am
Post subject: Re: Stu, StuG 40 and StuG III

I was under the impression that

StuG or Sturmgeschutz was an assault gun

and

StuH or Sturmhaubitz was assault artillery.

The primary determining factor was the gun caliber not the length of the gun tube.

Don

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T26E4
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Stu, StuG 40 and StuG III

The StuH had a 10.5cm Howitzer -- that's what made it a Sturmhaubitze -- not just because its weapon had a 10.5cm weapon versus the 7.5cm L/24, L/43 or L/48 tank cannon of the Sturmgeschutzen.
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:29 am
Post subject: Re: Stu, StuG 40 and StuG III

I just got the answer, and it's quite complicated...

The official denomination for the StuG III with the 7,5 cm long barrel was first StuG 40, because it carry the gun SturmKanone (StuK) 40, which can be L/43 or L/48 (that is to say, the shell rotates 43 or 48 times in the barrel, that depends of the grooves and of the length of the barrel. This rotation provides more stability to the shell). That is right for the models Ausf. F, F/8 and G. The models Ausf. A to E (7,5 cm short barrel) were then called StuG III.

You can find StuG 40 Ausf. G with or without the Saukopf, it doesn't matters.

But when appeared the Sturmgeschütz IV (based on a PzKpfw IV hull), all the StuG 40 were renamed StuG III, so that they could easily be differentiated from the new StuG IV. So, you can find the same denomination for different vehicles, which makes it a bit complicated.

You also have a variant with the 10.5 cm Howitzer, which is called 10,5 cm Sturmhaubitze or StuH 42.

Notica that the primary role of the StuG III was to be an assault gun. Then it was (successfully !!) used as a tank destoyer when the StuK 40 gun was introduced.

P-O

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bsmart
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:04 am
Post subject: Re: Stu, StuG 40 and StuG III

- the_shadock
I just got the answer, and it's quite complicated...

The official denomination for the StuG III with the 7,5 cm long barrel was first StuG 40, because it carry the gun SturmKanone (StuK) 40, which can be L/43 or L/48 (that is to say, the shell rotates 43 or 48 times in the barrel, that depends of the grooves and of the length of the barrel. This rotation provides more stability to the shell). That is right for the models Ausf. F, F/8 and G. The models Ausf. A to E (7,5 cm short barrel) were then called StuG III.

P-O


Huh?? I thought the 'L numbers' designated the length of the barrel in calibers? It has something to do with the number of rotations the round makes? So does this mean that the 75 L70 of the Panther and the Jagd Pz IV is designated that because the round rotates 70 times in the barrel??

I've got to think about this. I'm curious about the source.

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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:22 am
Post subject: Re: Stu, StuG 40 and StuG III

In fact, Bob, you're right. I wrote this text, having read this principle of rotation 'somewhere' (don't remind where exactly) without verifying if it was right or wrong.. So the L is length of the barrel in calibers, and it doesn't depends of the number of rotations of the shell in the barrel... thanks to correct me

P-O

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bsmart
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Stu, StuG 40 and StuG III

No problem. You had me worried for a while. L numbers have been one of the core measurements that help explain the differences in things like why the Panther and 17 pder were so much better than the base Sherman as antitank weapons. You had me worried there was something I had missed all these years :-). But that is what I like about this group, folks ask for explanations in a moderately polite manner and get reasonable responses or good discussions in return.

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clausb
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:30 am
Post subject: Re: Stu, StuG 40 and StuG III

- the_shadock
I just got the answer, and it's quite complicated...


Nah, it is not that bad compared with the designation mess of some other vehicles, particularily the whole Jagdpanzer/Sturmgeschütz/Panzerjäger debacle that sprung from the bureacratic infighting between the Generalinspectorates of Artillery and that of the Panzertruppe Smile

- the_shadock
The official denomination for the StuG III with the 7,5 cm long barrel was first StuG 40, because it carry the gun SturmKanone (StuK) 40,

<SNIP>

That is right for the models Ausf. F, F/8 and G. The models Ausf. A to E (7,5 cm short barrel) were then called StuG III.

You can find StuG 40 Ausf. G with or without the Saukopf, it doesn't matters.

But when appeared the Sturmgeschütz IV (based on a PzKpfw IV hull), all the StuG 40 were renamed StuG III, so that they could easily be differentiated from the new StuG IV. So, you can find the same denomination for different vehicles, which makes it a bit complicated.

You also have a variant with the 10.5 cm Howitzer, which is called 10,5 cm Sturmhaubitze or StuH 42.


I'm not sure what your source is for this, but to some extent is clashes with what Jentz has to say in his Osprey volumes on this vehicle. As far as I can make out, the story goes like this:

Officially, all StuGs until some point in 1943 were designated "gepanzerte Selbstfahrlafette für Sturmgeschütz" (armoured selfpropelled chassis for assault gun). This was then qualified by adding the designation of the weapon it carried and the mark of the vehicle, so an Ausf. E with the short 7,5cm StuK 37 would be :

"gepanzerte Selbstfahrlafette für Sturmgeschütz 7,5cm Kanone Ausf. E"

When the long 7,5cm gun entered the picture early in 1942, the official designation was:

"gepanzerte Selbstfahrlafette für Sturmgeschütz 7,5cm Sturmkanone 40 Ausf. F"

My guess would be that the StuG 40 designation came about when some beancounter needed a way to discern between the abbreviation previously used for the vehicle armed with the short-barreled 7,5cm - "StuG" - and the new ones armed with the longer 7,5cm gun and so coined the phrase "StuG 40".
Something similar appears to have happened in the case of the Panzer III, where a Panzer III was just PzIII to begin with, then they became PzIII(37) and PzIII(5) when the short 5cm gun arrived, then PzIII(5kz) and PzIII(5lg) (kz = kurz= short, lg=lang=long) and finally PzIII(75) when the Panzer III Ausf. N arrived with the short 7,5cm gun.

Anyway, in late 1942, the 10,5cm Sturmhaubitze was mounted in the StuG but I haven't found any early designation for that vehicle, other than "Sturmgeschütz leichte Feldhaubitze" that was used in the project phase back in 1941.

Now, early in 1943, enter the vehicle affectionately known as the "Brummbär", a Panzer IV with a tall, box-like superstructure mounting a short 15cm howitzer. Now there were StuG-type vehicles based on both the Panzer III and Panzer IV and someone apparently decided to clean up the designations. So, the vehicle previously known as

"gepanzerte Selbstfahrlafette für Sturmgeschütz 7,5cm Sturmkanone 40 Ausf. F" (or F/8 or G)

became simply

"Sturmgeschütz III für 7,5cm StuK 40 L/48"

The howitzer armed vehicle became

"Sturmgeschütz III für 10,5cm StuHaub 42"

while the Panzer IV based "Brummbär" became the

"Sturmgeschütz IV für 15cm StuHaub 43"

When the Alkett factory was bombed in late 1943 and StuG production ground to a halt, StuG superstructures were mounted on Panzer IV hulls at the Krupp factory, producing the

"Sturmgeschütz IV für 7,5cm Stuk 40 L/48"

It would seem that by 1944, that got a tad too confusing as well, the "Sturmgeschütz III für 10,5cm StuHaub 42" becomming the "Sturmhaubitze" and the "Sturmgeschütz IV für 15cm StuHaub 43" becomming the "Sturmpanzer", but I cannot follow that debacle in my sources.

The crux of the matter is, as with all German AFV designations, that they are dynamic and subject to change. New designations will be created and retrofitted to older designs, some agencies will coin their own designations suiting their particular purpose (tabulating strength returns, for example) or bureaucratic powerstruggles will expand into the area of naming and concepts. Furthermore, perhaps not everybody will get the message and change the designations in their correspondance until long after it has officially changed.

If I was you, I'd simply forget about official designations and use something we can all understand and follow Smile

Claus B
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:22 am
Post subject: Re: Stu, StuG 40 and StuG III

- clausb


I'm not sure what your source is for this, but to some extent is clashes with what Jentz has to say in his Osprey volumes on this vehicle.


I tried to summarize and make simple different infos I got on websites and on military-related magazines.. my goal was to provide basic infos on my website, but not to write stupid or incorrect things. The problem is that, on this particular subject, everybody says one thing and its opposite...

- clausb

If I was you, I'd simply forget about official designations and use something we can all understand and follow Smile

Claus B


You are entirely right, that's what I will do. However, I just try to understand why we can find all those denominations. What you explain enlighten the complexity of the subjects. Maybe I have to let that to specialists.. Wink

Pierre-Olivier

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