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Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:28 am
Post subject: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

This M47 sits at the end of the row of M60's and M48 at the 1st CAV museum. Easy to read serial number of 8537, USA number 3C-168736. My son Jeffrey found the front two floor hatches missing and we were able to snap some interior shots, esspecially of the data plate. The data plate had no manufacture date which suprised me. Both the M47 at Ft Irwin were Italian models that made there way back to the states. They were serials 1560 which had a Transmission overhaul data plate of 6/5/68 in Italy. And there was serial number 1022 which was overhauled in Cittadella Italy.
A few numbers I have on M47's are as follows;
- The Italians used M47's from1954 through 1989, 35years!!!
- M47 was the last tank to utilize a 5 man crew.
- M47 cost $129,000 each to produce.
- 8,576 M47's were built, (5481 at Detroit Tank Arsenal and 3095 at American Locomotive)
- Spain rebuilt 22 M47's into M47ER3's from 1993-96 and they are in service today.
- The M47 entered military service in 1952 but was being replaced by the M48 by 1953 and was being exported widely to NATO countries such as Belgium, France, Germany, and Austria.
- The M47 is still in some use with Greece, Turkey, Republic of Korea, Jordan, Iran, Pakistan, and Yugoslavia, (how up to date this is, I do not know).


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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:47 am
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

" A few numbers I have on M47's are as follows;
- The Italians used M47's from1954 through 1989, 35years!!!
- M47 was the last tank to utilize a 5 man crew.
- M47 cost $129,000 each to produce.
- 8,576 M47's were built, (5481 at Detroit Tank Arsenal and 3095 at American Locomotive)
- Spain rebuilt 22 M47's into M47ER3's from 1993-96 and they are in service today.
- The M47 entered military service in 1952 but was being replaced by the M48 by 1953 and was being exported widely to NATO countries such as Belgium, France, Germany, and Austria.
- The M47 is still in some use with Greece, Turkey, Republic of Korea, Jordan, Iran, Pakistan, and Yugoslavia, (how up to date this is, I do not know)."

What is so special about the M47 that it would be so longlived? We know the T54/55 series persists by virtue of its numerical superiority and dog$hit simple mechanics. We also know the Danish and Norwegians liked the Walker Bulldog family because of its small size and utility on narrow roads and small islands.
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:19 am
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

OK,
I don't have my references with me but I'm pretty damn sure no M47 ever made it to Korea during the war (M26's and M46's), and from what I remember the 90mm gun on the M47 had a changed chamber that allowed for firing of the older 90mm rounds of the M26 and M46 but actually fired a higher velocity round. Looking at this tank I doubt very seriously it had been upgraded to a Diesel, all the M47's I've seen with 1790 diesels had the low IR rear grills like the M48A2/3/5's and M60's. This one is still equipped with the gas mufflers coming from the top deck, it would be a hell of a plumbing job to route the exhaust from a 1790 diesel that way. Jeff, you need to straighten this museum out. It's better to put out no information than wrong.

Joe D
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

Hi Folks!

- SFC_Jeff_Button

This M47 sits at the end of the row of M60's and M48 at the 1st CAV museum.



I have to agree with Joe D. That plaque has some very questionable claims on it.

The engine up grade. It is my understanding the M47s that were upgrade to the AVDS-1790-2A diesel engine had a top engine deck that look's like a M48A3, air filter boxes on the fenders and grill doors on the top half of the rear hull.

As for the Korean War, I have never heard of the M47 making it over there for the war. M46s, yes, M47s no. I wonder if they have the dates off and that unit used M47s post war. Maybe that is were the M47s the South Koran Army used (post war) came from?

Jeff, I think that museum needs a lot of help.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

Hi Folks!

This%20Spanish%20M47%20has%20the%20diesel%20engine%20up%20grade.%20You%20can%20see%20the%20air%20filter%20boxes%20on%20the%20fenders%20and%20just%20make%20out%20some%20of%20the%20top%20engine%20deck%20about%20those%20boxes. Just%20drawing,%20but%20it%20is%20the%20best%20I%20have%20of%20an%20engine%20upgrade.
This is the only photo I recall ever seeing of a South Korean Army M47. Could it be they never used the gun version?

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out!

Top two photos are from Steven J Zaloga's "The M47 & M48 Patton Tanks" by Osprey Vanguard 29, ISBN 0 85045 466 2, Copyright 1980.

Botton photo from Jane;s World Armoured Fighting Vehicles by Christopher F. Foss, ISBN 0 312 44047 2, copyright 1976.

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

Nothing I find on the Ferreamole site seems to indicate that the Italian M47's were ever converted to diesel. You can view their tech manuals and pics below:

www.ferreamole.it/imag...47_01m.htm

"L'M47 era dotato di un motore Continental AV-1790-5B alimentato a benzina con 12 cilindri a V da 29.361 cc., raffreddato ad aria ed erogante una potenza massima di 810 Hp a 2.800 giri/min. Nonostante la potenza fosse adeguata al peso del mezzo, questo motore era il vero tallone d'Achille del carro a causa del suo consumo spaventoso. Si pensi che pur avendo una riserva di 1.055 litri di benzina, l'autonomia su strada era di soli 128 Km. Ciò significava un consumo di oltre 8 litri/Km. Il motore era accoppiato ad una trasmissione automatica Cross-Drive (così definita perchè montata trasversalmente nel vano motore) CD-854-4 con due marce avanti ed una indietro. Come si vede dalle foto, motore e trasmissione erano stabilmente uniti in modo da poter essere rimossi contemporaneamente, facilitando così le operazioni di manutenzione."

www.ferreamole.it/imag..._01pic.htm
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

I spoke with the 1st CAV museum assistant today and explained that the M47 wasn't a diesel conversion. He look at me rather blandly and said many of the plaques didn't reflect correct information. He then followed that up by telling me I would probably find an M151 jeep labeled as having served in the Korean War if I looked close enough. So you can see the amazing folks that run the museum don't seem to care a great deal, at least at 1st CAV.
These pictures are of the 4th ID M47, serial number 483, USA number 370675. There is a foriegn data plate on the back as well, Italian? last number of tha date appears to be 67?


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Dontos
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

Its a disgrace that ANYONE working in a HISTORICAL MUSEUM (whether a volunteer or PAID STAFF) to openly express such an unprofessional suggestion.

Data plates being inaccurate are not uncommon but to make such suggestions and then to show utter disinterest!!!!

W.T.F!!!!
NOT ACCEPTABLE!!
(member 1st CAV Association, & 2nd generation 'First Team' veteran)
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

Sorry Don,
As I typed that last post, I just knew I'd hit a cord with you and I didn't mean to but I had to tell it like it was. The actual director, Mr. Draper has had medical issues as of late and wasn't around. I've onlt recieved brief e-mail traffic from him via my Ft Hood e-mail account. He seems interested in my research but I've yet to meet him in person. I was actually suprised by the 4th ID museum directors knowledge on armor, She, (Celia Stratton) went on about armor, spouting their nomenclatures like an expert. She was very pleasent and basically gave me access to whatever I wanted armor wise for research.
I wish I worked in a military museum. I doubt that will ever happen without some sort of related degree, but I think I'd make a good contribution. I'm not bragging, but doing something you truely enjoy makes the job just so much more enjoyable. I envy you and where you are, believe me! I look forward to the day when we meet.

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

- SFC_Jeff_Button
Sorry Don,
As I typed that last post, I just knew I'd hit a cord with you and I didn't mean to but I had to tell it like it was. The actual director, Mr. Draper has had medical issues as of late and wasn't around. I've onlt recieved brief e-mail traffic from him via my Ft Hood e-mail account. He seems interested in my research but I've yet to meet him in person. I was actually suprised by the 4th ID museum directors knowledge on armor, She, (Celia Stratton) went on about armor, spouting their nomenclatures like an expert. She was very pleasent and basically gave me access to whatever I wanted armor wise for research.
I wish I worked in a military museum. I doubt that will ever happen without some sort of related degree, but I think I'd make a good contribution. I'm not bragging, but doing something you truely enjoy makes the job just so much more enjoyable. I envy you and where you are, believe me! I look forward to the day when we meet.


okay,....okay. Got it. Apologies for the rant. Just pisses me off when historical instituations allow such cavilier attitudes. It blurs peoples perceptions of the institution. Total BS in my book.

Switching to 'Radio-Listening-Silence' now...
Don
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:10 am
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

Hi Guys!

- Dontos
- SFC_Jeff_Button
Sorry Don,
As I typed that last post, I just knew I'd hit a cord with you and I didn't mean to but I had to tell it like it was. The actual director, Mr. Draper has had medical issues as of late and wasn't around. I've onlt recieved brief e-mail traffic from him via my Ft Hood e-mail account. He seems interested in my research but I've yet to meet him in person. I was actually suprised by the 4th ID museum directors knowledge on armor, She, (Celia Stratton) went on about armor, spouting their nomenclatures like an expert. She was very pleasent and basically gave me access to whatever I wanted armor wise for research.
I wish I worked in a military museum. I doubt that will ever happen without some sort of related degree, but I think I'd make a good contribution. I'm not bragging, but doing something you truely enjoy makes the job just so much more enjoyable. I envy you and where you are, believe me! I look forward to the day when we meet.


okay,....okay. Got it. Apologies for the rant. Just pisses me off when historical instituations allow such cavilier attitudes. It blurs peoples perceptions of the institution. Total BS in my book.

Switching to 'Radio-Listening-Silence' now...
Don


I totally agree with you Don. As you say "Total BS"
Sgt, Scouts Out!

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"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:06 am
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

Now for a little defense of the guy

It's hard to say how many times I have been called on to defend some detail at Aberdeen by someone who thinks he has found a significant mistake. Whether it is the 'Why can't you take better care of these tanks' to 'you painted that tank the wrong color it should be 1/2 a shade darker' There have even been people argue with Dr Atwater about how Leopold (Anzio Annie) is painted and he has a letter from the ex gun commander describing the paint job! When the old metal signs were mounted near the tanks there were some with glaring errors.

I would try to listen to each persons comments and explain (as best I knew) why what they saw was the way it was. For bad info on the signs sometimes the answer was that we knew there was an error and they were trying to get knew signs that would hold up better (The metal ones were almost unreadable, but it seemed like any mistake was still perfectly clear). But occasionally I would have a bad day and someone would get a perfunctery 'yes we know that' answer or what I thought was a tongue in cheek 'If you think thats bad you should see ????'

Now if I could get that way and only have to put up with it on the occasinal times I choose to go up there I can sympathize with someone who gets the same thing day after day. It doesn't excuse it but I guess I'm hoping that you caught him at the end of a bad day and that he didn't intend to sound as cavalier as he did.

As far as wanting to work at a museum - You're making the first step make contacts and volunteer. Use the opportunity to learn more about it from there side. Offer to present what you learn to staff and patrons, offer to give tours. One advantage to volunteering is you can stop any time you want if you decide it isn't your thing. If the museums there are anything like Aberdeen they have most of their visitors 9tour groups, boy scouts, etc) when they are least available to handle it (weekends) That is how I moved from just 'hanging out' looking at the tanks at Aberdeen to giving tours. They needed help with groups on weekends. Who knows you may end up being our 'inside guy' down there soon

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