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Fort Jackson SC Armor - Flamethrower Sherman, M41, M46, M5..
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:45 am
Post subject: Re: Fort Jackson SC Armor - Flamethrower Sherman, M41, M46, M5..

Yeah, time is usually an issue. I had to make it to a meeting - Fort Jackson (on Friday) was just a brief stop.

Neil
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:52 am
Post subject: Re: Fort Jackson SC Armor - Flamethrower Sherman, M41, M46, M5..

Hi Jim! Hi Folks!

- JimWeb

I always have great difficulty telling the difference between the M46 & M46A1.....
Cool


You have to get inside the engine or the driver's compartments to be able to tell the differance AFAIK.

The M46 (New) {as it was first called} was equiped with the powerpack and control systems used in the M47. The M46 (New) was later renamed M46A1 to avoid confusion between the vehicles.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out!

Referance: "The M26 Pershing and Variants, T23E3/M26-M26A1-M45-M46/M46A1, page 4 and 6 by Troy D. Thiel, Schiffer Military History
M46 engine: AV-1790-5A V12 mo-gas
M46A1 engine: AV-1790-5B V12 mo-gas
M46 transmission: cross-drive cd-850-3
M46A1 trans: cross-drive cd-850-4

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Last edited by Roy_A_Lingle on Mon May 21, 2007 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:00 am
Post subject: Re: Fort Jackson SC Armor - Flamethrower Sherman, M41, M46,

- Neil_Baumgardner




Hmm this sort of reminds me - JED now has 29 identified variants of the M114 listed... This is on the new server as the old one is not currently being updated. New server should be on-line, probably, this weekend - 136Gb capacity....

BTW if you want to help check out the new server for errors and cop a free look then drop me an email.

Cool

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:04 am
Post subject: Re: Fort Jackson SC Armor - Flamethrower Sherman, M41, M46,

- Roy_A_Lingle

The M46 (New) {as it was first called} was equiped with the powerpack and control systems used in the M47. The M46 (New) was later renamed M46A1 to aviod confusion between the vehicles.


Roy Do you know if its correct that the M46s were all farmed off to various allies and replaced by A1s in the US Army when they started to come off the production line? Or is this just an old soldiers (wives) tale?

Cool

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:18 am
Post subject: Re: Fort Jackson SC Armor - Flamethrower Sherman, M41, M46,

Hi Jim! Hi Folks!

- JimWeb

Roy Do you know if its correct that the M46s were all farmed off to various allies and replaced by A1s in the US Army when they started to come off the production line? Or is this just an old soldiers (wives) tale?
Cool


I have no idea (or informantion on that). But based on my military career, my guess would be that older versions went first, (as in M46) followed by newer version (as in M46A1) when replaced by even newer models (as in M47) which in turn was replaced/passed on to others when the M48 started going into service. That's a wives tale that has some bases to it, even without facts to support it.

Until I read a comment that the M26/M46 tanks served with other NATO countries, I was not aware that anyone other than the US Army and USMC used those two vehicles. I have never seen a picture of either with markings from any of the other NATO countries that I can remember.

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:43 am
Post subject: Re: Fort Jackson SC Armor - Flamethrower Sherman, M41, M46, M5..

How large were the M46 vice M46A1 production runs? The Northlake IL example is SN 248; the one at Fort Knox is SN 368; and finally the one at Fort Jackson is SN 1169... I suspect the first two at least are vanilla M46s?

Neil
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 9:43 am
Post subject: Re: Fort Jackson SC Armor - Flamethrower Sherman, M41, M46,

- Roy_A_Lingle

I have no idea (or informantion on that). But based on my military career, my guess would be that older versions went first, (as in M46) followed by newer version (as in M46A1) when replaced by even newer models (as in M47) which in turn was replaced/passed on to others when the M48 started going into service. That's a wives tale that has some bases to it, even without facts to support it.


So using a bit of logic we can assume that any images taken after a certain date would be of M46A1 rather than M6...

The trouble is (of course) - what date?

Cool

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Kurt_Laughlin
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Fort Jackson SC Armor - Flamethrower Sherman, M41, M46,

There's at least one other M46, at Cantigny IL.

To think, I've climbed on half of them. . .

KL
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Fort Jackson SC Armor - Flamethrower Sherman, M41, M46, M5..

Kurt, thanks for the info. I was aware of the following in Wheaton / Catigny, IL, but not an M46:

M26 Pershing
M47 Patton RN 12J866
M48 Patton SN 2650
T26E4 Super Pershing Only surviving T26E4?; RN301281432

Neil
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 2:54 am
Post subject: Re: Fort Jackson SC Armor - Flamethrower Sherman, M41, M46, M5..

Hi Neil Hi Folks!

- Neil_Baumgardner

How large were the M46 vice M46A1 production runs?
Neil


Production of M46s?

It is my understanding that there was NO production of M46s.
The M46 was just a M26 which had the rear half of the hull cut off and replaced with a modified rear hull and a new powerpack.

As to the question of when the M46A1 upgrade started, my guess would be that the developement of the M47 might provide some clues.

When did the the M47 start development?
When was it standardized?
At what date, did it have the same powerpack the M46A1 received?
If not, when did it start receiving that powerpack?
Sense the M46 was a modification of the M26 hull. M46 (New) modifications may have started shortly after the time the M47, with the same powerpack, started production and the remainder of any M26s still in service were converted to M46s.

Even if a date can be nailed down, there is no way to be sure a photo dated after said date, shows a M46A1. I would say it's a case of call all of them M46s unless someone can get inside to check the driver's controls or inspect the powerpack and confirm the model numbers on the engine and transmission.

Base on what LITTLE I know about the M46 program, that is my intell estimate on when to call the first Patton tank a M46A0 or a M46A1.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 3:55 am
Post subject: Re: Fort Jackson SC Armor - Flamethrower Sherman, M41, M46, M5..

If the M46/M46A1s were all rebuild of M26s were they assigned new serial numbers or are the serial numbers their original M26 numbers?

If they were not assigned new numbers than trying to find a 'break point' where they changed may be futile since they could have been selected for rebuild without regard to serial number

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 4:09 am
Post subject: Re: Fort Jackson SC Armor - Flamethrower Sherman, M41, M46, M5..

Hi Bill! Hi Folks!

- bsmart

If the M46/M46A1s were all rebuild of M26s were they assigned new serial numbers or are the serial numbers their original M26 numbers?

If they were not assigned new numbers than trying to find a 'break point' where they changed may be futile since they could have been selected for rebuild without regard to serial number


Good point Bob. With that in mind, we need to add in the M45-105mm How's hulls which were also convered to M46 90mm main gun tanks.

The problem just got a little bigger.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 4:15 am
Post subject: Re: Fort Jackson SC Armor - Flamethrower Sherman, M41, M46, M5..

I'll take a look at Hunnicutt's Patton tonight. He usually refers to the SNs of the pilot vehicles - if they are low numbers I think we can assume they restarted the numbering. It should also be able to tell me how many M46s were remanufactured vs new build M46A1s - which should give something of a starting point for telling A0s from A1s by the SN (in theory).

Neil
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 5:15 am
Post subject: Re: Fort Jackson SC Armor - Flamethrower Sherman, M41, M46, M5..

Another thought

If M46A1s were 'new build' was it just a case of at some point inserting the new powerpacks into the existing M26 production chain? I'm sure the production chain was running at a slow pace at that point (like all the new production between V-J day and Korea) so it may have been a case that M46A1 numbers picked up with the number after the last chassis that got the older power pack.

Has it been established that M46A1s were new builds? From the thread so far I thought it was just the model powerpack they got that made the difference. Were the powerpacks different enough that they would not have been interchanged in the field?

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 5:28 am
Post subject: Re: Fort Jackson SC Armor - Flamethrower Sherman, M41, M46, M5..

Hi Bob! Hi Folks!

- bsmart
Another thought

If M46A1s were 'new build' was it just a case of at some point inserting the new powerpacks into the existing M26 production chain? I'm sure the production chain was running at a slow pace at that point (like all the new production between V-J day and Korea) so it may have been a case that M46A1 numbers picked up with the number after the last chassis that got the older power pack.

Has it been established that M46A1s were new builds? From the thread so far I thought it was just the model powerpack they got that made the difference. Were the powerpacks different enough that they would not have been interchanged in the field?


It is my understanding that there were NEVER any new built M46 or M46A1 hulls. All were modifications of older M26 and M45 hulls.

The A1 upgrade also included changes with the driver's controls.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

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