±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 604
Total: 604
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Home
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Photo Gallery
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Statistics
19: Photo Gallery
20: Home
21: Community Forums
22: Home
23: Community Forums
24: Your Account
25: Community Forums
26: Your Account
27: Community Forums
28: Home
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Home
32: Photo Gallery
33: Community Forums
34: Photo Gallery
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: CPGlang
38: Photo Gallery
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Home
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: News
48: Community Forums
49: Photo Gallery
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Home
55: Community Forums
56: Downloads
57: Home
58: Community Forums
59: Photo Gallery
60: Photo Gallery
61: Community Forums
62: Downloads
63: Photo Gallery
64: Community Forums
65: Photo Gallery
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Home
69: Home
70: Home
71: Photo Gallery
72: Member Screenshots
73: Photo Gallery
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Home
82: Photo Gallery
83: Community Forums
84: News Archive
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Member Screenshots
89: Community Forums
90: Photo Gallery
91: Statistics
92: Home
93: Community Forums
94: Downloads
95: Photo Gallery
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Home
99: Community Forums
100: Photo Gallery
101: Downloads
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Photo Gallery
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Photo Gallery
109: Photo Gallery
110: Downloads
111: Community Forums
112: Photo Gallery
113: Downloads
114: Home
115: Community Forums
116: Your Account
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Photo Gallery
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Downloads
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Downloads
128: Community Forums
129: Photo Gallery
130: Photo Gallery
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Home
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Downloads
140: Home
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Photo Gallery
145: Community Forums
146: Home
147: Community Forums
148: Photo Gallery
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Photo Gallery
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Home
168: Downloads
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Photo Gallery
172: Member Screenshots
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Photo Gallery
177: CPGlang
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: News Archive
182: Community Forums
183: Home
184: Community Forums
185: Photo Gallery
186: Photo Gallery
187: News Archive
188: Community Forums
189: Home
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Downloads
203: News Archive
204: Community Forums
205: Statistics
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Downloads
211: Home
212: Photo Gallery
213: Photo Gallery
214: Community Forums
215: CPGlang
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Home
221: Home
222: Community Forums
223: Photo Gallery
224: Photo Gallery
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Statistics
229: Community Forums
230: Downloads
231: Community Forums
232: Home
233: Community Forums
234: Home
235: Community Forums
236: Home
237: Home
238: Photo Gallery
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Home
245: CPGlang
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: CPGlang
250: Your Account
251: Community Forums
252: Home
253: Photo Gallery
254: News
255: Statistics
256: Community Forums
257: Photo Gallery
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Downloads
261: Community Forums
262: Photo Gallery
263: Photo Gallery
264: Home
265: Home
266: Community Forums
267: Photo Gallery
268: Home
269: CPGlang
270: Community Forums
271: Photo Gallery
272: Downloads
273: Photo Gallery
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Home
277: Photo Gallery
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Downloads
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Downloads
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Member Screenshots
299: Photo Gallery
300: Community Forums
301: CPGlang
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: Photo Gallery
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: News Archive
311: Community Forums
312: Photo Gallery
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Statistics
319: Community Forums
320: Downloads
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: CPGlang
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Photo Gallery
328: Your Account
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Downloads
335: Downloads
336: Community Forums
337: Photo Gallery
338: Member Screenshots
339: Home
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Downloads
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Photo Gallery
346: Home
347: Community Forums
348: Home
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Photo Gallery
353: Community Forums
354: Home
355: Community Forums
356: Photo Gallery
357: Photo Gallery
358: Downloads
359: Community Forums
360: Photo Gallery
361: Community Forums
362: Photo Gallery
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Home
366: Member Screenshots
367: Community Forums
368: Your Account
369: Member Screenshots
370: Home
371: Photo Gallery
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Photo Gallery
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Your Account
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Photo Gallery
388: Community Forums
389: Photo Gallery
390: CPGlang
391: Community Forums
392: Home
393: Downloads
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Photo Gallery
398: Photo Gallery
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: CPGlang
402: Community Forums
403: Home
404: Home
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Home
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Home
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Downloads
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Statistics
419: Photo Gallery
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Downloads
425: Downloads
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Downloads
431: Community Forums
432: Statistics
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Statistics
437: Photo Gallery
438: Home
439: Community Forums
440: Photo Gallery
441: Your Account
442: Community Forums
443: Home
444: Member Screenshots
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: News
448: Member Screenshots
449: Community Forums
450: Home
451: Member Screenshots
452: Community Forums
453: Home
454: Home
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Member Screenshots
458: Photo Gallery
459: Photo Gallery
460: Home
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Member Screenshots
464: Community Forums
465: Photo Gallery
466: Downloads
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Statistics
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Downloads
475: Community Forums
476: Home
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Photo Gallery
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Photo Gallery
485: Photo Gallery
486: Statistics
487: Community Forums
488: Home
489: Community Forums
490: Photo Gallery
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Home
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Photo Gallery
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Photo Gallery
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Home
507: Community Forums
508: Your Account
509: Community Forums
510: Photo Gallery
511: Photo Gallery
512: Community Forums
513: Home
514: News
515: Community Forums
516: Home
517: Statistics
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Home
522: Community Forums
523: Home
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Home
532: Downloads
533: Community Forums
534: Photo Gallery
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Statistics
538: Photo Gallery
539: Community Forums
540: Photo Gallery
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Photo Gallery
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Home
548: Community Forums
549: Home
550: Home
551: Community Forums
552: Home
553: Photo Gallery
554: Statistics
555: Community Forums
556: Home
557: Community Forums
558: Home
559: Community Forums
560: Community Forums
561: Photo Gallery
562: Community Forums
563: Downloads
564: Downloads
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Your Account
570: Community Forums
571: Home
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Member Screenshots
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Home
580: Photo Gallery
581: Downloads
582: News
583: Home
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: CPGlang
589: Community Forums
590: Downloads
591: Photo Gallery
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Home
596: Community Forums
597: Home
598: CPGlang
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Photo Gallery
602: CPGlang
603: Community Forums
604: CPGlang

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:00 pm
Post subject: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

Hello,

today I got the information that there was an M4A3 wreck on a fire range near Colmar. With a friend, we immediately went there and took some pictures this afternoon :

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Tanks_in_France/sherman_saintecroix/index.html

We found the original RN on the side of the tank, and it reads something like 30115087x. The serial number could be something like 6205x or 6206x, which is part of a batch of 822 M4A4(75)W built by Fisher.

Pierre-Olivier

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:21 pm
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

Hi P-O:

If the 30115087 is accurate the "x" was probably just the "S" for radio suppression - Tanks of this era only had eight-digit RNs. The serial for that RN is 62065.

It looks like it might still have the data plate inside. That would confirm the SN. Also, with no paint the Fisher build number should be visible on the front left side.

Did you record the differential housing and upper hull plate casting information?

Good work!!

Thanks,
KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:43 pm
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

- Kurt_Laughlin
Hi P-O:

If the 30115087 is accurate the "x" was probably just the "S" for radio suppression


Indeed the good number that I was able to read is 3011508x (the 7 was a mistake while writing the message)

- Kurt_Laughlin
It looks like it might still have the data plate inside. That would confirm the SN. Also, with no paint the Fisher build number should be visible on the front left side.

Did you record the differential housing and upper hull plate casting information?


There was no dataplate inside the tank. I did find the SN (which was only partially readable) on the tow lugs, but no SN was readable on the differential housing or the front armor plate. I do have some of the casting information (I did find some casting numbers on the final drive, turret base protection and bogies) :

Upper hull plate casting info :


P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:43 am
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

So is it an M4A3 or M4A4? Looking at the spacing of the bogies I would guess an M4A4.

But the engine seems to be a single V type. Could it have been re-engined after the war (I seem to remember the French re-engined a lot of shermans to a standard engine no matter what they started with)

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:04 am
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

M4A3. I think the "M4A4" at the end of the initial message was a typo.

ID features:

Only M4, M4A2, and M4A3 large hatch hulls built, so can't be an M4A4.

The engine door props (vertical, rectangular block about 18 inches forward of rear hull lift lug; broken off on the left, present on the right) were unique to the M4A3.

No bracket for aiming posts or ramming staffs on left rear sponson, so it was probably not a howitzer tank.

The rectangular rather than D-shaped weld fill areas on the glacis beside the differential housing bolt strip are indicative of a Fisher product. Fisher did not make howitzer tanks, so further confirmation.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:23 am
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

- Kurt_Laughlin
M4A3. I think the "M4A4" at the end of the initial message was a typo.

ID features:

Only M4, M4A2, and M4A3 large hatch hulls built, so can't be an M4A4.

The engine door props (vertical, rectangular block about 18 inches forward of rear hull lift lug; broken off on the left, present on the right) were unique to the M4A3.

No bracket for aiming posts or ramming staffs on left rear sponson, so it was probably not a howitzer tank.

The rectangular rather than D-shaped weld fill areas on the glacis beside the differential housing bolt strip are indicative of a Fisher product. Fisher did not make howitzer tanks, so further confirmation.

KL


Yes it's definitely an M4A3, the designation "M4A4" was another typo...

So these information confirm that the RN and SN are accurate, even if they are not complete.
I'm not 100% sure, but looking at the pictures, my wild guess is that the last number of the RN is a 1, and the SN is rather 6205x than 6206x :



that would make it RN 301150871 / SN 62059.

There are very few M4A3s in France, I wonder how this one came on that fire range...

P-O

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:09 am
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

Excellent work, P-O!

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:26 pm
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

well, we have to thank Kurt Laughlin and Joe DeMarco. I was only able to find the RN/SN of that tank, thanks to their researches and the information they provided to me.

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:43 am
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

"well, we have to thank Kurt Laughlin and Joe DeMarco. I was only able to find the RN/SN of that tank, thanks to their researches and the information they provided to me."

We can always come up with various combinations of random numbers, but it take people like P-O to take the time to travel, get dirty, and get wet crawling over old tanks to make them mean something.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:11 am
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

This thread is a perfect example of what I love about this community.

Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:45 am
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

Yeah, that's also the reason why this forum is my favourite one. We can learn so much from each other, because all the members here know that cooperation and sharing gives 1000 times more than confrontation and keeping the information for themselves..

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:23 pm
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

And we have been able to disagree without being disagreeable. The discussions here have been generally civil even when we have disagreed about the details

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:55 pm
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

Quick question for Kurt Laughlin (or someone else.. Rolling Eyes )

I did find the original RN painted at the back of the right side. Does it mean that it was not built by Fisher? It seems that all Fisher-built tanks have the RN at the front side.
Could this be indeed a tank built by Chrysler?

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:03 pm
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

Painted on markings are always hard to define because you never know who painted them. It could be the factory, the depot, the receiving port, or a using unit.

The markings in your photo look like the ones shown at the top center here, titled "Stencil":

www.stencilease.com/Al...encils.htm

The ones I've seen in period photos from later in the war looked more like those three rows down, titled "Military". My guess is that those are not the factory markings.

A good idea, P-O, but hard to pin down.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:05 pm
Post subject: Re: a "new" M4A3 wreck discovered today

Painted on markings are always hard to define because you never know who painted them. It could be the factory, the depot, the receiving port, or a using unit.

The markings in your photo look like the ones shown at the top center here, titled "Stencil":

www.stencilease.com/Al...encils.htm

The ones I've seen in period photos from later in the war looked more like those three rows down, titled "Military". My guess is that those are not the factory markings.

A good idea, P-O, but hard to pin down.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum