±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 601
Total: 601
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Photo Gallery
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Photo Gallery
15: Photo Gallery
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Statistics
21: Community Forums
22: Photo Gallery
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Home
26: Community Forums
27: CPGlang
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Home
31: Community Forums
32: Photo Gallery
33: Community Forums
34: Photo Gallery
35: Community Forums
36: Photo Gallery
37: Downloads
38: Photo Gallery
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Downloads
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Home
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Downloads
55: Community Forums
56: Photo Gallery
57: News
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Downloads
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Photo Gallery
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Photo Gallery
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Home
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Home
80: Member Screenshots
81: Photo Gallery
82: Community Forums
83: Photo Gallery
84: Community Forums
85: Your Account
86: Photo Gallery
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Home
93: Statistics
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Home
97: Community Forums
98: Photo Gallery
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: News
102: Community Forums
103: Photo Gallery
104: Community Forums
105: Photo Gallery
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Photo Gallery
112: News
113: Photo Gallery
114: Home
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Photo Gallery
121: Community Forums
122: Downloads
123: Photo Gallery
124: Community Forums
125: Home
126: Photo Gallery
127: Your Account
128: Downloads
129: Photo Gallery
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Photo Gallery
134: Community Forums
135: Photo Gallery
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Photo Gallery
140: Community Forums
141: Photo Gallery
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Home
147: Photo Gallery
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Photo Gallery
151: Community Forums
152: Home
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Statistics
156: Community Forums
157: Photo Gallery
158: Statistics
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Photo Gallery
171: Community Forums
172: Home
173: Community Forums
174: Photo Gallery
175: News
176: Community Forums
177: Home
178: Community Forums
179: Photo Gallery
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Home
185: Member Screenshots
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Statistics
189: Community Forums
190: Photo Gallery
191: Home
192: Community Forums
193: Home
194: Community Forums
195: Photo Gallery
196: Community Forums
197: Photo Gallery
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Photo Gallery
203: Photo Gallery
204: CPGlang
205: Community Forums
206: Photo Gallery
207: Downloads
208: Community Forums
209: Photo Gallery
210: Community Forums
211: Downloads
212: Home
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Downloads
222: Community Forums
223: Photo Gallery
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Photo Gallery
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Photo Gallery
232: Photo Gallery
233: Photo Gallery
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Statistics
239: Statistics
240: Photo Gallery
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Home
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Photo Gallery
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Photo Gallery
252: Community Forums
253: Photo Gallery
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Home
257: Community Forums
258: Home
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Photo Gallery
262: Photo Gallery
263: Community Forums
264: Home
265: Photo Gallery
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Photo Gallery
270: Community Forums
271: CPGlang
272: Home
273: Community Forums
274: Photo Gallery
275: Community Forums
276: Photo Gallery
277: Community Forums
278: Downloads
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Home
284: Statistics
285: Photo Gallery
286: Community Forums
287: Downloads
288: Downloads
289: Home
290: Photo Gallery
291: Photo Gallery
292: Photo Gallery
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Home
299: Community Forums
300: Downloads
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Home
305: Community Forums
306: Home
307: Photo Gallery
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Home
312: Community Forums
313: Photo Gallery
314: Member Screenshots
315: Community Forums
316: News
317: Community Forums
318: Home
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Photo Gallery
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Photo Gallery
326: Photo Gallery
327: Community Forums
328: Photo Gallery
329: Community Forums
330: CPGlang
331: Photo Gallery
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Photo Gallery
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Member Screenshots
341: Home
342: Downloads
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Photo Gallery
350: Community Forums
351: Photo Gallery
352: Your Account
353: Photo Gallery
354: Photo Gallery
355: Community Forums
356: CPGlang
357: Home
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Photo Gallery
361: Photo Gallery
362: Downloads
363: Statistics
364: Community Forums
365: Photo Gallery
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Home
371: Photo Gallery
372: Member Screenshots
373: Home
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Downloads
379: Community Forums
380: Photo Gallery
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: CPGlang
389: Community Forums
390: Home
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Photo Gallery
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Photo Gallery
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Downloads
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Statistics
406: Home
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: CPGlang
410: Community Forums
411: Photo Gallery
412: Photo Gallery
413: Photo Gallery
414: Community Forums
415: Photo Gallery
416: Community Forums
417: Home
418: Photo Gallery
419: Member Screenshots
420: Community Forums
421: Photo Gallery
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Member Screenshots
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Photo Gallery
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Community Forums
437: Home
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Downloads
441: Community Forums
442: Home
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Home
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Home
452: Photo Gallery
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Photo Gallery
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Statistics
463: Home
464: CPGlang
465: Home
466: Photo Gallery
467: Downloads
468: Photo Gallery
469: Photo Gallery
470: Community Forums
471: Photo Gallery
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Photo Gallery
477: Downloads
478: Community Forums
479: Photo Gallery
480: Community Forums
481: Photo Gallery
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Photo Gallery
487: Community Forums
488: Photo Gallery
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Statistics
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: News Archive
498: Community Forums
499: Home
500: Photo Gallery
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Home
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Photo Gallery
507: Community Forums
508: Home
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Home
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Photo Gallery
518: Community Forums
519: Member Screenshots
520: Community Forums
521: CPGlang
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Your Account
533: Downloads
534: Community Forums
535: Photo Gallery
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Photo Gallery
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Photo Gallery
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: CPGlang
546: Community Forums
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Photo Gallery
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Photo Gallery
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Home
558: Downloads
559: Community Forums
560: Photo Gallery
561: Community Forums
562: Home
563: Community Forums
564: Photo Gallery
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Home
568: Community Forums
569: Photo Gallery
570: Photo Gallery
571: Home
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Photo Gallery
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Photo Gallery
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: CPGlang
582: Community Forums
583: Photo Gallery
584: Community Forums
585: Downloads
586: Home
587: Member Screenshots
588: Community Forums
589: CPGlang
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Home
594: Community Forums
595: Photo Gallery
596: Community Forums
597: Photo Gallery
598: Community Forums
599: Your Account
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Question for the Sherman gurus...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:25 am
Post subject: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Apart from the 17 pounder, what are the other (if any) definitive visual characteristics of a "Firefly"? I had thought that the additional flat steel plates in front of the driver and radio/bow gunner were unique to the Firefly, but apparently this is not the case. For Fireflies that had the 17lb. gun changed (or never actually installed) is there a visual cue that says "Yep, that was intended to be, or was at one time, a "Firefly"?

Thx in advance.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
tanker2010
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:51 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

The large box welded to the rear of the turret. Google can be your friend.

www.google.com/images?...25&bih=636
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:56 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

They also had a blanked off hull MG mount.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:09 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Thanks, I knew this was the place to ask!

What would constitute "blanked off", since many displays don't have a hull MG mounted. Got an example image of what to look for? I see some Google images of reputed fireflies with varying looking mounts.

I "Googled" the firefly and checked the wiki page, but I think our membership is more reliable, frankly.


Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Tichenor
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 06, 2007
Posts: 461
Location: Antwerp
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:44 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Dough

Not a Sherman expert, but I will give it a try.

Firefly's where only build on the M4, M4A1, or M4A4 chassis (I'm counting the M4 Composite as a M4). All where VVSS, dry stowage and 75mm hulls and turrets.
From the outside the box on the rear of the turret (where the radios where mounted in) is a give away, only Firefly's had this modification.

Most of the Firefly's used the bow gunners place as extra stowage for ammunition so there was a plate welded over the bow gun. However this is not 100% true for all Firefly's. Here in Belgium there are some (probably) post war rebuild Firefly's without the cover (the one in Leopoldsburg at the railway station for example).

There is ia different gunshield used on the Firefly's, it has a ring of bolts around the gun.

There shoud be a gun lock at the rear off the hull (left from the center).
Example without the plate but with the gun lock
Firefly with all the stuff on

Michel
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:14 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Thanks, Tichenor...that's a big help! Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
tankbarrell
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:47 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Fireflies were not built on M4A1.
Back to top
View user's profile
Tichenor
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 06, 2007
Posts: 461
Location: Antwerp
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:35 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- tankbarrell
Fireflies were not built on M4A1

Oops indeed not on M4A1.
I explicid posted Composites are M4's, but somewhere in my mind they keep popping up as M4A1's Confused
And that UK Grizzly with fireflyturret is still chasing me Wink
Michel
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

As Tichenor says, you have to make a distinction between wartime and post-War Fireflies. Really only wartime conversions were true Fireflies but since the war the Firefly turret has appeared on Shermans that would never have converted during the war - particularly in the armies of Italy and Belgium. Text books and websites will describe the main characteristics - the mantlet, turret, blanked-off MG, etc. - and these can be seen in contemporary wartime pictures. However many (most?) surviving Fireflies will contradict these since they have been converted post-war on whatever convenient chassis were available. Occasionally you will even see a Firefly without a 17pdr turret. So overall the definition of what constitutes a Firefly is complicated.

These are the ones I have so far added to PTC - and probably not one is an original authentic wartime Firefly:

Preserved Sherman Firefly tanks

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- TrevorLarkum
However many (most?) surviving Fireflies will contradict these since they have been converted post-war on whatever convenient chassis were available. Occasionally you will even see a Firefly without a 17pdr turret. So overall the definition of what constitutes a Firefly is complicated.


To keep it simple I would suggest to stick the Firefly label to the wartime conversions.

Those converted post-war I would not designate Fireflies, if only because it is unsure whether they were actually converted and used post-war, or cobbled up from available hulls and turrets to put on display in museums and memorials.

Regards,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Hanno, I would tend to agree. However, most collections don't publicise whether their Firefly is wartime or post-war. I think the best approach is to make a judgement based on what can be seen of the authentic Firefly features - hence the Museo Storico dei Carristi example on that linked page above, even though it doesn't have a 17pdr. There always will be grey areas, however, until collections start publishing (caring about?) the histories of their vehicles.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:43 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

"Blanked off" is something like this:

data3.primeportal.net/...4_of_7.jpg

data.primeportal.net/t...20(17).JPG

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
claude_GILLONO
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

The loader had a characteristic square turret roof hatch too.
HTH
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:37 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- TrevorLarkum
Hanno, I would tend to agree. However, most collections don't publicise whether their Firefly is wartime or post-war. I think the best approach is to make a judgement based on what can be seen of the authentic Firefly features - hence the Museo Storico dei Carristi example on that linked page above, even though it doesn't have a 17pdr. There always will be grey areas, however, until collections start publishing (caring about?) the histories of their vehicles.


Trevor, we don't need curators' descriptions, they are notoriously bad as they don't wear anoraks like we do Laughing

A Firefly has a 17-pounder gun with all the amenities described above. So if someone re-converted a Sherman Firefly into another configuration, then the tank loses the "Firefly" tag (which is a nickname more than a proper designation, anyway).


HTH,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:14 am
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

We are walking a thin line here... Assume, just for the sake of the argument, that we have two tanks, one Sherman V and another Sherman V Firefly. Then an insane curator (without anorak!) swap the turrets among the two tanks, no another mods, just turret swap. Do we still have a "Firefly"? If yes, which of the two can be called Firefly?

Of course this is an extreme, unrealistic scenario, but it forces us to think about it.

From what I can see Trevor's stance is "the hull rules", if the hull came from a Firefly, Trevor will flag it as a Firefly, basically, in the scenario above, he will pick the hull.

Any categorization is, by its very own nature, more or less arbitrary. Since Trevor has the need to apply categories to his database, he has to make choices and enforce some rules.

Other may be facing even harder choices, for example, should we put Fireflies among american or british tanks? There no definitive answer to such a question...

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum