±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 747
Total: 747
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Photo Gallery
05: Member Screenshots
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Photo Gallery
10: Home
11: Home
12: Community Forums
13: Downloads
14: Search
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: CPGlang
20: Community Forums
21: CPGlang
22: Downloads
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Photo Gallery
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Downloads
30: Community Forums
31: Photo Gallery
32: Photo Gallery
33: Community Forums
34: Member Screenshots
35: Photo Gallery
36: Photo Gallery
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Downloads
40: Photo Gallery
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Downloads
46: Community Forums
47: Home
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Photo Gallery
51: Your Account
52: Community Forums
53: Home
54: Community Forums
55: Home
56: Photo Gallery
57: Community Forums
58: Photo Gallery
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Home
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Your Account
68: Community Forums
69: Home
70: Member Screenshots
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Member Screenshots
74: Photo Gallery
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: CPGlang
80: Photo Gallery
81: Photo Gallery
82: Community Forums
83: Photo Gallery
84: Community Forums
85: Home
86: Home
87: Community Forums
88: Home
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Home
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Member Screenshots
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: News Archive
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Home
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: CPGlang
121: Community Forums
122: Home
123: Home
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Photo Gallery
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Home
137: Community Forums
138: Downloads
139: Community Forums
140: Home
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Home
145: Photo Gallery
146: Community Forums
147: Photo Gallery
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Photo Gallery
152: Member Screenshots
153: Member Screenshots
154: CPGlang
155: Community Forums
156: Home
157: Photo Gallery
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Photo Gallery
162: CPGlang
163: Home
164: News
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Photo Gallery
169: Community Forums
170: Home
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Member Screenshots
174: Photo Gallery
175: Community Forums
176: Downloads
177: Community Forums
178: Photo Gallery
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: News Archive
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Photo Gallery
186: Community Forums
187: Photo Gallery
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Home
197: CPGlang
198: Downloads
199: Your Account
200: Community Forums
201: CPGlang
202: Community Forums
203: Photo Gallery
204: Home
205: Home
206: Community Forums
207: CPGlang
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Photo Gallery
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Member Screenshots
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Photo Gallery
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Member Screenshots
225: Home
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Downloads
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: CPGlang
235: Community Forums
236: Photo Gallery
237: Photo Gallery
238: Photo Gallery
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Your Account
248: Community Forums
249: Downloads
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: CPGlang
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Home
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Photo Gallery
264: Home
265: Community Forums
266: Photo Gallery
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Photo Gallery
274: Community Forums
275: Home
276: Home
277: Community Forums
278: Photo Gallery
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Home
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Photo Gallery
288: CPGlang
289: Photo Gallery
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Photo Gallery
295: Home
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Downloads
304: Community Forums
305: Home
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Member Screenshots
314: Photo Gallery
315: Photo Gallery
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Photo Gallery
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Photo Gallery
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Statistics
328: Photo Gallery
329: Downloads
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Photo Gallery
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Home
338: Photo Gallery
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Photo Gallery
342: Home
343: Downloads
344: Community Forums
345: Downloads
346: CPGlang
347: CPGlang
348: Community Forums
349: Home
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Member Screenshots
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Photo Gallery
359: Home
360: Community Forums
361: Statistics
362: Community Forums
363: Home
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Photo Gallery
373: Community Forums
374: Home
375: Community Forums
376: Home
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Home
381: Community Forums
382: News Archive
383: Downloads
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: CPGlang
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Home
396: Your Account
397: Photo Gallery
398: Home
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Home
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Member Screenshots
413: Member Screenshots
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Home
420: Home
421: Community Forums
422: Photo Gallery
423: CPGlang
424: Community Forums
425: Home
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Home
429: Photo Gallery
430: Home
431: Community Forums
432: News
433: Your Account
434: Statistics
435: Community Forums
436: News Archive
437: Community Forums
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Statistics
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Photo Gallery
448: Community Forums
449: Photo Gallery
450: CPGlang
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: CPGlang
454: Community Forums
455: CPGlang
456: Community Forums
457: Photo Gallery
458: Photo Gallery
459: Community Forums
460: Photo Gallery
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Photo Gallery
464: Community Forums
465: Photo Gallery
466: Downloads
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: CPGlang
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Downloads
476: Community Forums
477: Downloads
478: Community Forums
479: Home
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Photo Gallery
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: CPGlang
488: CPGlang
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Statistics
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Home
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Member Screenshots
499: Member Screenshots
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: CPGlang
503: Community Forums
504: Photo Gallery
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: CPGlang
509: Photo Gallery
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: CPGlang
513: Photo Gallery
514: Your Account
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Photo Gallery
518: Photo Gallery
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Downloads
524: Your Account
525: Photo Gallery
526: Photo Gallery
527: Photo Gallery
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: CPGlang
532: Home
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Member Screenshots
536: Photo Gallery
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: CPGlang
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: Photo Gallery
546: Community Forums
547: Downloads
548: Photo Gallery
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Photo Gallery
553: Home
554: Photo Gallery
555: Home
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: CPGlang
559: Home
560: CPGlang
561: Community Forums
562: Photo Gallery
563: Community Forums
564: Community Forums
565: CPGlang
566: News Archive
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Photo Gallery
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Photo Gallery
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: CPGlang
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Statistics
583: Your Account
584: Photo Gallery
585: Your Account
586: Community Forums
587: Home
588: Community Forums
589: Community Forums
590: Your Account
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Photo Gallery
599: Community Forums
600: Home
601: Community Forums
602: Photo Gallery
603: Photo Gallery
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Photo Gallery
608: Member Screenshots
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Photo Gallery
612: Downloads
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Downloads
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Photo Gallery
621: Photo Gallery
622: CPGlang
623: Community Forums
624: Your Account
625: Community Forums
626: Downloads
627: Home
628: Community Forums
629: Community Forums
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: Community Forums
634: Community Forums
635: Community Forums
636: Downloads
637: Community Forums
638: Community Forums
639: Community Forums
640: Community Forums
641: Community Forums
642: Community Forums
643: Community Forums
644: Community Forums
645: Community Forums
646: CPGlang
647: Community Forums
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Home
652: Community Forums
653: Photo Gallery
654: Community Forums
655: Community Forums
656: Community Forums
657: Community Forums
658: Community Forums
659: Community Forums
660: Community Forums
661: Community Forums
662: Home
663: Your Account
664: Home
665: Community Forums
666: Photo Gallery
667: Community Forums
668: Photo Gallery
669: Downloads
670: CPGlang
671: Community Forums
672: Community Forums
673: Photo Gallery
674: Community Forums
675: Photo Gallery
676: Community Forums
677: Community Forums
678: Community Forums
679: Community Forums
680: Community Forums
681: Community Forums
682: CPGlang
683: Community Forums
684: Community Forums
685: Community Forums
686: Community Forums
687: Community Forums
688: News
689: Downloads
690: Community Forums
691: Member Screenshots
692: Community Forums
693: Community Forums
694: Community Forums
695: Member Screenshots
696: CPGlang
697: Community Forums
698: Community Forums
699: Community Forums
700: Photo Gallery
701: Photo Gallery
702: CPGlang
703: Home
704: Community Forums
705: Community Forums
706: Community Forums
707: Community Forums
708: Photo Gallery
709: Home
710: Community Forums
711: Photo Gallery
712: Community Forums
713: Community Forums
714: Community Forums
715: Community Forums
716: Community Forums
717: Community Forums
718: Community Forums
719: Community Forums
720: Community Forums
721: Member Screenshots
722: Photo Gallery
723: Photo Gallery
724: Community Forums
725: Home
726: Community Forums
727: Community Forums
728: Home
729: Community Forums
730: Community Forums
731: Community Forums
732: Community Forums
733: Community Forums
734: Community Forums
735: Community Forums
736: Photo Gallery
737: Community Forums
738: Downloads
739: CPGlang
740: Community Forums
741: Home
742: Home
743: Community Forums
744: Community Forums
745: Community Forums
746: Community Forums
747: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Question for the Sherman gurus...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

The line is thin but clearly visible in my opinion: the starting point is the gun. Firefly is a popular name for the Sherman tanks converted with a 17-pdr AT gun. So, if no 17-pdr gun, the Sherman is not a Firefly.

Of course Trevor can use any set of rules to categorize his database. After people start swapping hulls, turrets, guns, engines, in my database I simple refer to those hodgepodge tanks as "Sherman", as they are nothing more than that. And for many people it is enough to see "a Sherman tank".

Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Hanno_Spoelstra
So, if no 17-pdr gun, the Sherman is not a Firefly.


What about an original 17-pdr gun turret on top of an hull that spots none of the Firefly's unique features, like the revised ammo storage?
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Massimo_Foti
What about an original 17-pdr gun turret on top of an hull that spots none of the Firefly's unique features, like the revised ammo storage?


That I would describe as "a Sherman" Wink

As a curator I would place a sign describing of which components this Sherman was made up of, and why. I would definitely not label this as a "Sherman Firefly" but a M4A(x) Medium Tank with a Firefly turret, or even, a turret with 17-pdr gun.
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Hanno_Spoelstra
That I would describe as "a Sherman" Wink


You can't have it that easy, you know Laughing


- Hanno_Spoelstra
As a curator I would place a sign describing of which components this Sherman was made up of, and why.


These days we are lucky if we can identify "which", "why" often remains a question without an answer, just like the tank in "Museo Carristi". We know that after WW II the Italian Army assembled Shermans out of anything available. At one point some turrets were used for fortifications. Later spare hulls were mixed with other turrets just for display/preservation purposes (most likely the case for the Sherman in Bologna).

Again, my point is that any categorization is arbitrary, but categorization are a necessity, so we have to live with the trade-off.

Massimo

PS You still have to tell me if a Sherman Firefly should be considered american or british Mr. Green
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Actually, the thrust of my original question: "For Fireflies that had the 17lb. gun changed (or never actually installed) is there a visual cue that says "Yep, that was intended to be, or was at one time, a "Firefly"?"

...was intended to help me distinguish all other Shermans that had been modified from Fireflies that had been modified...so the presence or absence of the 17 pounder in later years is not what I was hoping to have as a criteria. In particular, I'm trying to distinguish between Argentina's many "repotenciados" many, if not most of which originated as Fireflies. For the ones that didn't have that origin, I'm wondering how one would tell.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

That was indeed an interesting question Doug. But we failed to resist the temptation to side-track the thread... Sorry

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Back to Doug's question. The original discussion around the Sherman in Rome was lost during a server crash here. But some comments are still available on Trevor's website and could help:
preservedtanks.com/Pro...4&Select=4

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Massimo_Foti
That was indeed an interesting question Doug. But we failed to resist the temptation to side-track the thread... Sorry

Massimo


Dangerous thread swerves are just an everyday hazard at the DG. Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Hanno_Spoelstra
Trevor, we don't need curators' descriptions, they are notoriously bad as they don't wear anoraks like we do :lol:


True, but my point is that museums need to start caring about provenance, and that means starting with the serial number and researching a vehicle's history. It shouldn't be us doing their job for them. If it was an aircraft you can be sure they'd make more effort.


- Hanno_Spoelstra
A Firefly has a 17-pounder gun with all the amenities described above. So if someone re-converted a Sherman Firefly into another configuration, then the tank loses the "Firefly" tag (which is a nickname more than a proper designation, anyway).


To me the 'someone' is key. If a collector or re-enactor puts a Firefly turret on a standard Sherman I will record it as a standard Sherman, with a Firefly turret. If however the Italian or Belgian army puts a Firefly turret on a standard Sherman and it serves in that configuration then I record it as a Firefly (but an Italian or Belgian one, not a British one).


- Massimo_Foti

From what I can see Trevor's stance is "the hull rules", if the hull came from a Firefly, Trevor will flag it as a Firefly, basically, in the scenario above, he will pick the hull.


All other things being equal, yes that is correct. Hence the tanks I have recorded as Fireflies even though they no longer have a Firefly turret or 17pdr. However, that can be trumped (see the previous paragraph) - if a tank has served in an army as a Firefly (a Firefly turret on a different hull) then it's a Firefly. Even the first British Fireflies didn't have all the characteristics we now consider to indicate a Firefly, but they were Fireflies nonetheless.

Increasingly the best answer I am finding is to make clearer categories. Once I have more examples of a tank in the database I can make finer distinctions. In this case I will likely create categories for British, Italian and Belgian Fireflies, and the text will explain the characteristics in this case. For example, I am just getting to the point where I have started to do this with the M47 Patton with its Italian Service section.


- Massimo_Foti
Other may be facing even harder choices, for example, should we put Fireflies among american or british tanks? There no definitive answer to such a question...


This was a hard choice for me at one time and I agonised over it. I now absolutely define a tank by the nationality of its hull design, and have never regretted that move. For me the Firefly comes under Sherman tanks, which are under American tanks:

Preserved American Tanks: Volume 2

There are sections there for Fireflies, Ishermans, FL10s, etc. Having experience of writing about tank development it has become for me the only choice. When writing about the Firefly you need to have described the history and development of the Sherman, much less relevant is the history of British tanks. At first glance it may appear to throw up anomalies (e.g. the US M1917 and Soviet KS are in a chapter with the FT), but it very quickly makes perfect sense. My only regret is that I didn't follow it absolutely when I wrote Preserved German Tanks, and included the Hetzer, Marder I, etc. Now they would come under Czechoslovak and French tanks respectively.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Tichenor
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 06, 2007
Posts: 461
Location: Antwerp
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Trevor
Once I have more examples of a tank in the database I can make finer distinctions. In this case I will likely create categories for British, Italian and Belgian Fireflies, and the text will explain the characteristics in this case.


This is going to be a hard nut to crack. As far as I know all the Firefly's in Belgium are original British build exempt maybe two ( the one in Leopoldsburg and a hull in Brasschaat). But even then there is no proof they where actualy rebuild after the war here in Belgium. But I have to say, some of the monuments here in Belgium are fore sure a mix of hulls and turrets (Hechtel, Hermeton-sur-meusse, Clermont, Mopertingen).

Michel
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

If so, I'll classify them as British and make note of differences and exceptions. I look forward to writing up Belgium - I had a lot of fun in my youth cycling round and visiting old tanks - but it won't be for some time yet.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 2 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum