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Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more

#16: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and Author: Doug_Kibbey, Location: The Great Satan

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:25 pm
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- binder001

Doug, Thank you for sharing the photos.

That looks like a fist-rate military museum. Quite a Sherman collection they have! I have seen photos of that M31 recovery vehicle before. I think it is the most complete of its kind left in existence.

Gary

There is on Wikipedia a report of this one in Tel Aviv with at least one of it's "phony" guns (don't know if it's still the case)

commons.wikimedia.org/...osef-2.jpg

...and Chris Conners has a pic of this one on his site supposedly at the Patton Museum (is this one still there...I don't recall seeing it?)

afvdb.50megs.com/usa/p...rvm31.html

AND THIS GUY HAS DONE A NICE WALKAROUND OF THIS SAME VEHICLE, POSTED HERE: Wink

news.webshots.com/albu...9631RfUgws

#17: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and Author: Doug_Kibbey, Location: The Great Satan

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:29 pm
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Time to detail out one vehicle....

Interior (remember, it was REALLY, REALLY dark in there..I was shooting blind)...

#18: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and Author: Dontos, Location: Vine Grove, KY

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:57 pm
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[quote="Doug_Kibbey"]

- binder001

Doug, Thank you for sharing the photos.

That looks like a fist-rate military museum. Quite a Sherman collection they have! I have seen photos of that M31 recovery vehicle before. I think it is the most complete of its kind left in existence.

Gary

There is on Wikipedia a report of this one in Tel Aviv with at least one of it's "phony" guns (don't know if it's still the case)

commons.wikimedia.org/...osef-2.jpg

...and Chris Conners has a pic of this one on his site supposedly at the Patton Museum (is this one still there...I don't recall seeing it?)

afvdb.50megs.com/usa/p...rvm31.html

We have it.... Its in Front of the Museum.

Don

#19: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more Author: Roy_A_Lingle, Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:38 am
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Hi Doug! Hi Folks!

- Doug_Kibbey

"Gee, I coulda' had a V8!" (Is this a Ford or Cadillac?)

I think that is a Ford GAA V8 that was standard in the M4A3 Shermans.

I like the way they took the time to set up some of the engines for display.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

#20: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more Author: Doug_Kibbey, Location: The Great Satan

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:21 am
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- Roy_A_Lingle

Hi Doug! Hi Folks!

- Doug_Kibbey

"Gee, I coulda' had a V8!" (Is this a Ford or Cadillac?)

I think that is a Ford GAA V8 that was standard in the M4A3 Shermans.

I like the way they took the time to set up some of the engines for display.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt5uSx3eFYU

Mr. Green

#21: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and Author: Doug_Kibbey, Location: The Great Satan

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:37 pm
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So, by now you're all aware of the M4 Reponteciado version with the upgraded French V8 diesel, just with a between-the-cyl-bank exhaust manifold and the 105mm gun which is apparently a copy of the one in the AMX-13 and of Argentine manufacture. There are other mods, but that's the big stuff. Lets look inside one....

Last edited by Doug_Kibbey on Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:44 am; edited 1 time in total

#22: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more Author: Dontos, Location: Vine Grove, KY

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:57 pm
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Personally, I don't warm up to the idea of the side opening breech in an enclosed vehicle(ie a tank).

Weird color coimbo on the interior. Red & Green ?!!!

Cool stuff though Doug. Thanks

"Training has taken place"... Rolling Eyes

#23: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and Author: Doug_Kibbey, Location: The Great Satan

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:13 am
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'Nuther M4 and who doesn't love a turret trainer?

Meanwhile...over at the Ministry of Defense....

#24: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more Author: Chris_C, Location: WV, USA

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:09 pm
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Interesting pics, thanks. Smile

#25: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and Author: Doug_Kibbey, Location: The Great Satan

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:29 pm
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Back to the museum...two views of a dismounted gun. I belive this one was labeled as a 76.2mm...would that make it a 17lb.er?

...and who doesn't love a halftrack?

#26: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and Author: Doug_Kibbey, Location: The Great Satan

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:35 pm
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The AMX-13 (M-58). This is the same gun that inspired the Argentine manufactured version that is installed on the upgunned Shermans. This vehicle sits up at the bow because when I peeked in that inspection hole there above the second road wheel, I noticed the power pack is missing.

#27: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and Author: Doug_Kibbey, Location: The Great Satan

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:41 pm
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Well, I'll just let the info sign tell the tale. Could only get pics of the driver compartment. Don't know much else about this vehicle.

#28: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and Author: glmm,

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:20 pm
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Just a quick notes:
- Argentina bought a large number of second hand Shermans after the war, maybe up to 400 of several marks, including a number of Fireflies.
- Not all the vehicles were in service at the same time, as many were used as spare part sources. The vehicles were bought as junk!
- The Fireflies seems to have been the priority given their power armament.
- Never heard about three man crews for Argentine Shermans before!
- By the 70s the Sherman fleet was worn out. Rising tensions with Chile brought an update program with French elements. No doubt related to the French experience in developing the Israeli Sherman updates a few years early. Note the original turret shape was kept, no a small feat fitting such a powerful and large gun in such a small turret!
- The gun installed is the same gun as fitted to the AMX-13 (them in service with Argentina), itself derived from the F-1 gun of the AMX-30 with lower recoil and capable only of firing HEAT rounds. This is thus the same gun as fitted to the Israeli M51. These guns were made under license in Argentina.
- A new Poyaud 520 series diesel replaced previous engines. I think this was supercharged, although I don`t have my notes at hand.
- The upgraded vehicles got all four men crews. Other changes were nex coax MGs and modern radios.
- Asking a previous question, Argentina did use a small number of Crusader towers, although they disappeared rather quickly.

Went to Buenos Aires late 2005 but unfortunately couldn`t visit this museum as only opened in weekends!

#29: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and Author: Doug_Kibbey, Location: The Great Satan

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:45 pm
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- glmm

Just a quick notes:
- Argentina bought a large number of second hand Shermans after the war, maybe up to 400 of several marks, including a number of Fireflies.
- Not all the vehicles were in service at the same time, as many were used as spare part sources. The vehicles were bought as junk!
- The Fireflies seems to have been the priority given their power armament.
- Never heard about three man crews for Argentine Shermans before!
- By the 70s the Sherman fleet was worn out. Rising tensions with Chile brought an update program with French elements. No doubt related to the French experience in developing the Israeli Sherman updates a few years early. Note the original turret shape was kept, no a small feat fitting such a powerful and large gun in such a small turret!
- The gun installed is the same gun as fitted to the AMX-13 (them in service with Argentina), itself derived from the F-1 gun of the AMX-30 with lower recoil and capable only of firing HEAT rounds. This is thus the same gun as fitted to the Israeli M51. These guns were made under license in Argentina.
- A new Poyaud 520 series diesel replaced previous engines. I think this was supercharged, although I don`t have my notes at hand.
- The upgraded vehicles got all four men crews. Other changes were nex coax MGs and modern radios.
- Asking a previous question, Argentina did use a small number of Crusader towers, although they disappeared rather quickly.

Went to Buenos Aires late 2005 but unfortunately couldn`t visit this museum as only opened in weekends!

Thanks for your post, "glmm"....further to it:

Re: the three man crews...surfing the net for the sites on the upgraded M4's in Argentinian service, you don't find this reference, yet the info signs at the museum itself noted "Tripulacion: 3 hombres". Now, we well know that museum signs can be in error so I certainly asked about this. As it was, my principal guide was an AA artillerist but thought it was correct. I haven't yet written my big followup to my contacts there on several items, but will do so and mean to clarify this point. The assumption is that the TC did the loading and this is what I was told.

The engine upgrades. My first impression was that the French Poyaud 520 V8 was turbo-charged from the configuration of the exhaust. I did a lot of 'net surfing and found no info on land vehicles to support that. Also, I did find that this engine has the configuration of an inside-the-V exhaust manifold which very much resembles what would look like a turbo application without actually being one. For the time being, I'm inclined to think it's normally aspirated, but looks blown, until I can get this detail confirmed. I sure wish I'd poked my camera up in that engine bay further with the flash. Rolling Eyes

I have email contacts for some armor specialists in Argentina that I've yet to contact (at Brigade level) but you can be sure I will. I hope to get some of these details cleared up as soon as I can...and hope to enlist a member or more to join us here. Wink

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