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FY11 MILCON Museum Cuts
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:42 pm
Post subject: Re: FY11 MILCON Museum Cuts

Somewhat similar story at APG. The Ordnance Museum Foundation has turned it's back on the Ordnance Museum and rebranded itself as the "Aberdeen Military Museum Foundation" to support the residual "Aberdeen Proving Ground Museum" that will have the leftovers and CECOM stuff... If there's to be a new foundation it will have to be started anew...
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Not Good: House Proposed FY11 MILCON Museum Cuts

Hi Folks!
- Doug_Kibbey

- Garry_Redmon

The Patton Museum was built over several years in phases, the funding of which came from private donations through the Patton Museum Foundation. It was then signed over to the Army.
Garry


Which amounts to quite a burn for the people/organizations who donated thinking they were funding a legacy institution only to see the major part of it relocated. I wonder how many of them will be eager to donate again to support the re-creation of facility they thought was paid for?


Here at Ft Bliss the Air Defense Assocation (ADA)was doing a good job supporting the museum. When Air Defense moved to Ft Still and took most of the items that the ADA had help restore, the Assocation turned it's back on the 1st AD version of the museum and all of it's help has vanished. Even the gift shop closed back in January. 75% of their profits went to the museum.

Per the Museum Director, for the first time in 13 years he is broke. He has no funds for repairing or fixing up any of the 1st AD vehicles. The Center for Military History pays his and the Curators salaries, Ft Bliss does basic building repairs and covers the utilites. Anything else comes from public support. Except for a motorcycle club that has repainted the M1IP, this museum has no support.

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:31 pm
Post subject: Re: House Proposed FY11 MILCON Museum Cuts

Interesting... It looks like the cut (according to the conference report) called the Army on moving the museums under BRAC, but not funding them under BRAC... Problem is (not stated below), all BRAC efforts have to be completed by September 30 this year (not sure how the ongoing CR vs actual Appropriations affects that).

On the flipside, the language is extremely supportive of the museums (a little surprising to me) - just not how the Army tried to fund them.

www.hopewellnews.com/a...3155.shtml

Museum ops. support building funds cut from 2011 budget
By Sarah Steele Wilson, Hopewell News
Mar 11, 2011, 13:52

FORT LEE One of the effects of the Base Realignment and Closure policy on Fort Lee has been the arrival of the Ordnance Corps and School. Since 2009, artifacts from the United States Army Ordnance Museum have been making their way from Aberdeen Proving Ground as part of that move. A massive T-12 Bomb and an Artillery Piece called Anzio Annie are some of the most recent arrivals to Fort Lee.

While there were plans to build a new Ordnance Museum at Fort Lee to house the collection of historic weaponry, those plans may have to be put on hold.

According to Randy Forbes Press Secretary and Legislative Assistant Joe Hack, funds for the project were included in the President's FY2011 budget request, but were cut by the United States Senate in the National Defense Authorization Act. Senate Bill 3454 lists a $30 million dollar request for Museum Operations Support Building in 2011, which was cut in its entirety.

Hack said that the House of Representatives has banned all earmarks for this congressional session and that this type of project would be considered an earmark. He said the Army did not request funds for this project in their FY2012 budget request.

Hack also sent an excerpt from the conference report that explains the cut.

"We strongly support the Army's objective to properly preserve for public use historic sites, buildings, and objects of national significance as these collections not only inform the general public of the proud legacy and history of the Army, but also inspire younger generations to military service. As such, we are concerned that the Army's current plan will prohibit the general public from viewing these outstanding collections at their new locations until museums are constructed with privately-raised resources.

In addition, if these collections are deemed by the Department of the Army as critical to the relocation and operation of the three schools, the facilities should be funded from accounts established to carry out BRAC construction. As such, we strongly encourage the Department of the Army to develop a plan that will allow the relocation of these museum artifacts and collections in a way that satisfies the law, meets the training and education needs of the Department of the Army, and continues to afford the general public the opportunity to view these critical representations of American history."

As for how the lack of a museum may affect the ordnance artifacts, Ordnance Museum Director Chris Semancik emailed the following statement.

"The lack of a proper facility to preserve and house these artifacts, as well as grant access to them by the students of the U.S Army Ordnance School and other DoD affiliated agencies, could have negative impacts on the established program of instruction for the study of technological history and heritage of the U.S. Army Ordnance Corps. It is important that our Soldiers have a professional education that includes lessons learned from the deployment and maintenance of the ordnance systems of the past."
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Not Good: House Proposed FY11 MILCON Museum Cuts

- TrevorLarkum
Most of Bovington's money comes from the National Lottery - I don't know if there's a US equivalent. This year they're planning a 40,000 sq ft storage building with workshop and conservation facility. It's designed to hold 120 vehicles, and be accessible to the public.


Trevor, unfortunately there is no US equivalent - and frankly I think the Ordnance Museum would be happy to just have a facility of the caliber of the Bovington's _old_ tank museum, before the lottery. That was pretty much a story of the "rich getting richer" IMO...

Neil
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Not Good: House Proposed FY11 MILCON Museum Cuts

- vagabond
Neil,

Please let us know what we can to do to try to get this addressed.
I'll be glad to write/call Congressmen and anyone else that it might help to contact.

Maybe we can even talk the powers that be into building facilities with decent lighting - speaking as a member of the Photography Lobby!


VB,
Thanks for your thoughts - glad to hear that. I am starting to think it's time for some sort of action on this, perhaps even an organization or foundation of some sort (FYI, the old Ordnance Museum Foundation has recharted itself as the "Aberdeen Military Museum Foundation" to support the new APG Museum). I'm starting to float this idea with several people...

If and when anything comes of this, I will definitely let everyone know.

FYI, one more bit of news I just learned, is that the museum funding did not make it into the FY11 authorization (which was already passed) - so unfortunately it looks like its a bit of a dead issue for this fiscal year... FY12, etc is the big question now...

Neil
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ShermanWasRight
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Not Good: House Proposed FY11 MILCON Museum Cuts

- vagabond
Neil,

Please let us know what we can to do to try to get this addressed.
I'll be glad to write/call Congressmen and anyone else that it might help to contact.

Maybe we can even talk the powers that be into building facilities with decent lighting - speaking as a member of the Photography Lobby!


tell that to the USAF museum (ba-zing)
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piney
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Not Good: House Proposed FY11 MILCON Museum Cuts

I think Bob Smart's initials cover the whole situation completely

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:49 am
Post subject: Re: Not Good: House Proposed FY11 MILCON Museum Cuts

By the time the buildings will be ready our cameras will work just fine at ISO 6400. Camera makers will work faster than the public administrations Smile

Massimo
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vagabond
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:26 am
Post subject: Re: Not Good: House Proposed FY11 MILCON Museum Cuts

Neil,

Please let us know what we can to do to try to get this addressed.
I'll be glad to write/call Congressmen and anyone else that it might help to contact.

Maybe we can even talk the powers that be into building facilities with decent lighting - speaking as a member of the Photography Lobby!
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Garry_Redmon
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:18 am
Post subject: Re: Not Good: House Proposed FY11 MILCON Museum Cuts

Like I said, it's my impression, correct or not. This impression comes from unsubstantiated rumors and such floating around. Wink

The NACM Foundation says on their site that the museum will cost $50 million and on another page says $75 million and that part of that money will be from donations. It also says that the foundation is prepared to raise the entire funding if needed. With the deficit reduction plans flying around, possible cuts to entitlements being proposed, I just don't know.

Maybe one reason that some Congress critters are aware of the museum funding comes from the local, state and federal denizens in that region of Georgia wanting what they thought they would be getting by now . . . a huge tourist draw.

Don't get me wrong, I really, really do hope that the appropriation is approved and a new museum is built as quick as possible. Sand Hill is not an appropriate place to store historic vehicles. My two cents.

Garry

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:28 am
Post subject: Re: Not Good: House Proposed FY11 MILCON Museum Cuts

I spoke to a Congressional staffer on the subject this afternoon:

Bad News: This House Appropriations Committee proposal may well stand... If it gets to the Senate, they can basically only vote it up or down. Museum funding could not be put back in because that would be considered an "earmark," which they have done away with... If that happens, and the President signs it, no FY11 funding for the new museums. But, we could see the funding in the FY12 appropriations (or FY13, etc).

Good News: The small silver lining is that there are people aware of this issue on the Capitol. I was surprised how familiar he was with the subject... Apparently this has been discussed by various Congressmen (or their staff), which was further surprising to me...

So I will continue to watch this and see what happens. At the same time, I'm going to start asking questions about what the public can do...

Side Comment: Basically, the funding for the museums was requested at the worst possible time - in the transition from the control of Congress from the Democrats to the Republicans. If it has been in the FY10 request, construction would likely be underway now... Unfortunately, the Army waited until the end of the BRAC period (all BRAC moves are supposed to be done by the end of FY11) to request the museum funding...

Neil
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Neil_Baumgardner
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Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Not Good: House Proposed FY11 MILCON Museum Cuts

- Garry_Redmon

My impression, correct or not, is that the new National Armor and Cavalry Museum at Benning will have to be built the same way, through donations collected by the National Armor and Cavalry Museum Foundation. See link.

[SNIP]

I don't think that any public funds, except for staff salaries, building maintenance and the land it will be built on, will be used.



Garry, if that's the case, I dont know what the $32 million in the FY11 MILCON request for a "Museum Operations Support Building" at Fort Benning is for - particularly the part below: "This project is required to provide an adequate, secure storage area and training facility for US Army owned artifacts related to relocation of the Armor School to Fort Benning, GA. This facility will serve as a historical knowledge base for the evolution of armor and weapons systems that can be used as part of the Maneuver Center’s training curriculum."

See page 141 here comptroller.defense.go...011_c1.pdf

The details are on page No. 115 here asafm.army.mil/Documen...fh-hoa.pdf

ITEM UM (M/E) QUANTITY UNIT COST COST ($000)
PRIMARY FACILITY 2 3 , 1 7 3
Museum Operations Support Bldg m2 (SF) 9,848 ( 106,000) 2,167 (21,338)
Special Foundations LS -- -- (488)
IDS Installation LS -- -- (71)
EMCS Connections LS -- -- (196)
SDD and EPAct05 LS -- -- (436)
Total from Continuation page (644)
SUPPORTING FACILITIES 4 , 9 7 4
Electric Service LS -- -- (374)
Water, Sewer, Gas LS -- -- (232)
Paving, Walks, Curbs & Gutters LS -- -- (1,014)
Storm Drainage LS -- -- (402)
Site Imp( 2,811) Demo( ) LS -- -- (2,811)
Information Systems LS -- -- (81)
Antiterrorism Measures LS -- -- (60)
ESTIMATED CONTRACT COST 28,147
C O N T I N G E N C Y ( 5 . 0 0 % ) 1,407
SUBTOTAL 29,554
SUPV, INSP & OVERHEAD (5.70%) 1,685
D E S I G N / B U I L D - D E S I G N C O S T 1,182
TOTAL REQUEST 32,421
TOTAL REQUEST (ROUNDED) 32,000
INSTALLED EQT-OTHER APPROP ()
10 . Description of Proposed Construction
Construct a climate controlled storage facility with high bay. Project will
include museum operations support building, intrusion detection system (IDS) installation, energy monitoring and control system (EMCS) connections, antiterrorism measures and buildng information
systems. Supporting facilities include: water, sewer, and natural gas
services, parking, curbs and gutters, security lighting, exterior
communications, fire protection, storm sewer system, sidewalks, site
preparation, erosion control/grassing, landscaping, signage, cultural and
wetland mitigation at the site. Provide necessary antiterrorism measures.
Heating and air conditioning will be provided by self contained units.
Comprehensive building and furnishings related interior design services are required. Access for persons with disabilities will be provided. Sustainable Design and Development (SDD) and Energy Policy Act of 2005 (EPAct05) features will be provided. Air Conditioning (Estimated 1,319 kWr/375 Tons).

9. COST ESTIMATES (CONTINUED)
Unit Cost
Item UM (M/E) QUANTITY COST ($000)
PRIMARY FACILITY (CONTINUED)
Antiterrorism Measures LS -- -- (436)
B u i l d i n g I n f o r m a t i o n S y s t e m s L S - - - - (208 )
Total 644

REQUIREMENT: This project is required to provide an adequate, secure storage area and training facility for US Army owned artifacts related to relocation of the Armor School to Fort Benning, GA. This facility will serve as a historical knowledge base for the evolution of armor and weapons systems that can be used as part of the Maneuver Center’s training curriculum.

CURRENT SITUATION: Currently, there are no existing facilities on Fort
Benning that can be utilized to accommodate relocation of these systems to the
installation.

IMPACT IF NOT PROVIDED: If this project is not provided, there will be no
facilities at Fort Benning to receive, store, and maintain Army artifacts that
are to be sent to Fort Benning.
ADDITIONAL: This project has been coordinated with the installation physical security plan, and all physical security measures are included. All required antiterrorism protection measures are included. Alternative methods of meeting this requirement have been explored during project development. This project is the only feasible option to meet the requirement. The Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Army (Installations and Housing) certifies that this project has been considered for joint use potential. The facility will be available for use by other components. A parametric cost estimate based upon project engineering design was used to develop this budget estimate. Sustainable principles, to include Life Cycle cost-effective practices, will be integrated into the design, development, and construction of the project in accordance with Executive Order 13423, 10 USC 2802(c), and other applicable laws and Executive Orders.

A. Estimated Design Data:
(1) Status:
( a ) D a t e D e s i g n S t a r t e d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . APR 2008
( b ) P e r c e n t C o m p l e t e A s O f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15.00
( c ) D a t e 3 5 % D e s i g n e d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MAR 2011
( d ) D a t e D e s i g n C o m p l e t e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MAY 2011
( e ) P a r a m e t r i c C o s t E s t i m a t i n g U s e d t o D e v e l o p C o s t s YES
(f) Type of Design Contract: Design-build
(a) Standard or Definitive Design: NO
(3) Total Design Cost (c) = (a)+(b) OR (d)+(e): ($000)
( a ) P r o d u c t i o n o f P l a n s a n d S p e c i f i c a t i o n s . . . . . . . . . . 762
( b ) A l l O t h e r D e s i g n C o s t s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 457
( c ) T o t a l D e s i g n C o s t . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,219
( d ) C o n t r a c t . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 762
( e ) I n - h o u s e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 457
( 4 ) C o n s t r u c t i o n C o n t r a c t A w a r d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . JAN 2011
( 5 ) C o n s t r u c t i o n S t a r t . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MAR 2011
( 6 ) C o n s t r u c t i o n C o m p l e t i o n . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . SEP 2012
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Garry_Redmon
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Not Good: House Proposed FY11 MILCON Museum Cuts

That's a good point Doug. It's going to be a tough sell for the Patton Museum Foundation to get more donations to "stay in business" so to speak. The current infrastructure improvements to the building are being funded by Accessions Command and Fort Knox and I hope they continue to financially support the museum when it is needed.

Garry

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Not Good: House Proposed FY11 MILCON Museum Cuts

- Garry_Redmon
The Patton Museum was built over several years in phases, the funding of which came from private donations through the Patton Museum Foundation. It was then signed over to the Army.

My impression, correct or not, is that the new National Armor and Cavalry Museum at Benning will have to be built the same way, through donations collected by the National Armor and Cavalry Museum Foundation. See link.

www.armorcavalrymuseum.org/

I don't think that any public funds, except for staff salaries, building maintenance and the land it will be built on, will be used.

Garry


Which amounts to quite a burn for the people/organizations who donated thinking they were funding a legacy institution only to see the major part of it relocated. I wonder how many of them will be eager to donate again to support the re-creation of facility they thought was paid for?
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Garry_Redmon
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Not Good: House Proposed FY11 MILCON Museum Cuts

The Patton Museum was built over several years in phases, the funding of which came from private donations through the Patton Museum Foundation. It was then signed over to the Army.

My impression, correct or not, is that the new National Armor and Cavalry Museum at Benning will have to be built the same way, through donations collected by the National Armor and Cavalry Museum Foundation. See link.

www.armorcavalrymuseum.org/

I don't think that any public funds, except for staff salaries, building maintenance and the land it will be built on, will be used.

Garry

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