±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 609
Total: 609
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Photo Gallery
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Your Account
07: Photo Gallery
08: Community Forums
09: Photo Gallery
10: Home
11: Downloads
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Photo Gallery
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Home
20: Community Forums
21: Photo Gallery
22: Community Forums
23: CPGlang
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Photo Gallery
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Photo Gallery
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Home
36: CPGlang
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: News
41: Downloads
42: Home
43: Community Forums
44: Photo Gallery
45: Photo Gallery
46: Your Account
47: Your Account
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Photo Gallery
51: Downloads
52: Community Forums
53: Home
54: Downloads
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Home
58: Photo Gallery
59: Community Forums
60: Downloads
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Photo Gallery
68: Home
69: Community Forums
70: Photo Gallery
71: Photo Gallery
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Home
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Photo Gallery
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Photo Gallery
92: Community Forums
93: Home
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Photo Gallery
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Home
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Home
105: Home
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Photo Gallery
109: Community Forums
110: Downloads
111: Downloads
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Home
115: Community Forums
116: Photo Gallery
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Home
124: Photo Gallery
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Photo Gallery
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Home
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Your Account
143: Community Forums
144: Member Screenshots
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Member Screenshots
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Home
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Photo Gallery
158: Community Forums
159: Photo Gallery
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Photo Gallery
164: Community Forums
165: Downloads
166: Photo Gallery
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Home
171: Community Forums
172: Photo Gallery
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Home
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Photo Gallery
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: CPGlang
186: Photo Gallery
187: Statistics
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Home
192: Community Forums
193: Photo Gallery
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Photo Gallery
198: Photo Gallery
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Downloads
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Home
209: Community Forums
210: Home
211: Member Screenshots
212: Downloads
213: Home
214: Community Forums
215: News
216: Home
217: Your Account
218: Home
219: Community Forums
220: Photo Gallery
221: Home
222: Home
223: Your Account
224: Community Forums
225: Photo Gallery
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Photo Gallery
229: Photo Gallery
230: Community Forums
231: Photo Gallery
232: Community Forums
233: Your Account
234: Community Forums
235: Photo Gallery
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Statistics
239: Photo Gallery
240: Community Forums
241: News Archive
242: Community Forums
243: Photo Gallery
244: Community Forums
245: Photo Gallery
246: Photo Gallery
247: Photo Gallery
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Home
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Downloads
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: News
259: Photo Gallery
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Photo Gallery
265: Community Forums
266: Home
267: Community Forums
268: Photo Gallery
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Downloads
273: Downloads
274: Community Forums
275: Home
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Home
279: Community Forums
280: Photo Gallery
281: Your Account
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Downloads
286: Community Forums
287: Home
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Photo Gallery
291: Home
292: Photo Gallery
293: Community Forums
294: CPGlang
295: CPGlang
296: Community Forums
297: Photo Gallery
298: Home
299: Community Forums
300: Home
301: Photo Gallery
302: Community Forums
303: Photo Gallery
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Downloads
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Photo Gallery
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Your Account
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Photo Gallery
333: Community Forums
334: CPGlang
335: CPGlang
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: News
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Photo Gallery
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Your Account
351: Photo Gallery
352: Home
353: Community Forums
354: Photo Gallery
355: Photo Gallery
356: Home
357: Community Forums
358: Member Screenshots
359: Community Forums
360: Photo Gallery
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Photo Gallery
365: Photo Gallery
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Photo Gallery
369: Community Forums
370: CPGlang
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Downloads
375: Community Forums
376: Downloads
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Downloads
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Photo Gallery
383: Your Account
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Home
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Photo Gallery
392: Community Forums
393: Photo Gallery
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Home
397: Photo Gallery
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Photo Gallery
402: Community Forums
403: Home
404: Community Forums
405: Home
406: Downloads
407: Downloads
408: Home
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Downloads
414: Photo Gallery
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Home
421: Photo Gallery
422: Downloads
423: Community Forums
424: Home
425: Community Forums
426: Photo Gallery
427: Home
428: Community Forums
429: Home
430: Community Forums
431: Photo Gallery
432: Community Forums
433: Downloads
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Downloads
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Downloads
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Photo Gallery
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Home
448: Member Screenshots
449: Community Forums
450: Downloads
451: Community Forums
452: Photo Gallery
453: Community Forums
454: Photo Gallery
455: Photo Gallery
456: Home
457: Downloads
458: Home
459: Home
460: Community Forums
461: Your Account
462: Photo Gallery
463: Community Forums
464: Home
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Photo Gallery
468: Photo Gallery
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Photo Gallery
472: Community Forums
473: Photo Gallery
474: Community Forums
475: Photo Gallery
476: Home
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: CPGlang
480: Photo Gallery
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Photo Gallery
485: Photo Gallery
486: Community Forums
487: Photo Gallery
488: Community Forums
489: Your Account
490: Photo Gallery
491: Home
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Downloads
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Home
504: Community Forums
505: Photo Gallery
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Photo Gallery
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Photo Gallery
515: Community Forums
516: Downloads
517: Home
518: Home
519: Community Forums
520: Home
521: Home
522: Home
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Home
528: Home
529: Downloads
530: Home
531: Home
532: Photo Gallery
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Member Screenshots
536: Community Forums
537: Home
538: CPGlang
539: Photo Gallery
540: Community Forums
541: Photo Gallery
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: News Archive
546: Downloads
547: Community Forums
548: Photo Gallery
549: Photo Gallery
550: Photo Gallery
551: Community Forums
552: Member Screenshots
553: Community Forums
554: Home
555: Downloads
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Community Forums
560: Downloads
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: CPGlang
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Photo Gallery
568: Community Forums
569: CPGlang
570: Community Forums
571: Downloads
572: Community Forums
573: Home
574: Your Account
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Home
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: CPGlang
584: Photo Gallery
585: Home
586: Community Forums
587: Photo Gallery
588: Home
589: Home
590: Home
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Downloads
594: Community Forums
595: Home
596: Community Forums
597: Photo Gallery
598: Community Forums
599: Home
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Photo Gallery
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Home
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Pzkpfw-e
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jul 21, 2010
Posts: 1202

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:23 pm
Post subject: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

wyborcza.pl/1,75248,92...o_USA.html

Rough translation

The extraordinary story of the tank, which disappeared 20 years ago, immediately after extraction from the Black Nida near Bieleckich Mills. There are many indications that the panther was exported to the United States, where it is to be renovated and run as a great attraction. In Poland, the prosecutor's office investigated the matter, it also took the CBS

This story begins in mid-January 1945, when the Red Army advanced along the direction of Kielce, and its offensive on the Nida tried to stop the German armored units. During these struggles Pz.Kampf.V Tank Ausf. A Panther is stuck in the river near Bieleckich Mills (gm. Morawica). In the 50s Polish People's Army under the orders blasted its turret, but the nearly complete hull remained in place until 16 November 1990. Then, weighing around 30 tons, the wreckage was brought out on behalf of a private company. With helped from the technical security carts with a military unit Bukowiec. It turned out that the wreck is in a surprisingly good condition - it had all-wheel drive, all equipment inside. Experts have noted that it is quite unusual version of the panther, it is possible that a prototype.

The tank on the carriage was transported to Warsaw, then virtually disappeared. Even in 1991 there were some reports that it could get abroad as scrap, and journalists "Words of the People" described that involved the extraction of such operating in Kielce an association, while the army has made the extraction of the exercise.

Surprisingly, late last year began to investigate the matter Tank Central Bureau of Investigation. - Sam, I was surprised because it's so many years. But police said that the case was classified as a theft of cultural property, and it is not barred - anonymous informant tells Gazeta. For closure of this issue Police Chief spokesman did not respond to questions on this matter.

There are many indications that the procedure is carried out after doniesieniu made by Piotr Lewandowski, a lawyer, a private military enthusiast. - For several years trying to interest various authorities in this matter. After all, our country illegally were taken away a very valuable exhibit, and the circumstances in which this occurred, is at least strange - says Lewandowski. He argues that the tank completely excavated illegally on behalf of a private company from Warsaw. Interestingly, this would help, among others positive opinion of experts, the Higher Military School of Automobile, who found that it is worthless scrap. The documents, which arrived Lewandowski, shows that in return promised to provide some exhibits for the Museum. White Eagle in Skarzysko. - But the general conservator had agreed to deportation tank. Nevertheless, the wreck disappeared - emphasizes Lewandowski. Interestingly, after the interventions studied the matter twice in Kielce District Prosecutor. Last time last year. In April, interviewed, among others owners of a company that would handle the extraction of the wreck. - Indeed, the District Prosecutor Kielce-West to pursue a case on the illegal deportation tank, but they were dismissed because the case is przedawni?a - says S?awomir Mielniczuk, a spokesman for District Prosecutor's Office in Kielce.

- After that I made subsequent redemption notice, but this time the group, which probably deals with the wholesale export of such cultural property. Letter was sent to the chief of police, suggesting that the issue addressed by the Central Bureau of Investigation and the national team to fight crime against national heritage. I suspect that this resulted in a visit to CBS in the region Swietokrzyskie - says Lewandowski.

"Kielce" panther, probably around 2000 by Britain came to the United States. He bought it for his collection of Jacques Littlefield, a millionaire and passionate. On the internet you can find videos and photos of the tank and the information that has been redeemed from the Polish owner, and recovered from the Black Nida. With over 2 million dollars had been carefully renovated, reconstructing the tower, and even installed the original engine. Today, this tank is a lot of rides and attractions. - My dream is that once the tank returned to Polish - not hide Lewandowski.
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:01 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

Hmmm...

It's hard to be sure, but it sounds to me like it was recovered and sold by (possibly corrupt?) officials in the 90s. Now 20 years later someone powerful has decided that they want to undo the deal. It sounds a lot like 'sour grapes'.

I suspect that even if the investigators manage to gather a case, this will spend at least another 20 years in court. Winning the case in an American court is going to be an uphill battle. At the end, even if they win, the Poles will have to buy the restored Panther back for whatever Littlefield has sunk in the project. That's likely to be a lot of cash.

Chuck

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:29 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

- C_Sherman
Hmmm...

It's hard to be sure, but it sounds to me like it was recovered and sold by (possibly corrupt?) officials in the 90s. Now 20 years later someone powerful has decided that they want to undo the deal. It sounds a lot like 'sour grapes'.

I suspect that even if the investigators manage to gather a case, this will spend at least another 20 years in court. Winning the case in an American court is going to be an uphill battle. At the end, even if they win, the Poles will have to buy the restored Panther back for whatever Littlefield has sunk in the project. That's likely to be a lot of cash.

Chuck


On the order of $2M, as I understand it, and that's probably low. The MVTF is likely pretty well-endowed even after Jacques' passing, and I wouldn't want to be the one to mount a legal challenge against whatever firm he'd worked with in this life.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Smashy
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 05, 2010
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:34 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

- Doug_Kibbey

On the order of $2M, as I understand it, and that's probably low. The MVTF is likely pretty well-endowed even after Jacques' passing, and I wouldn't want to be the one to mount a legal challenge against whatever firm he'd worked with in this life.


There won't be much left of the 'well endowed' by the time the lawyers have finished. I would suspect some sort of compromise will be reached to avoid bankrupting the foundation.

_________________
Smashy
Back to top
View user's profile
Rikard_Hufschmied
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 458
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

- Smashy
- Doug_Kibbey

On the order of $2M, as I understand it, and that's probably low. The MVTF is likely pretty well-endowed even after Jacques' passing, and I wouldn't want to be the one to mount a legal challenge against whatever firm he'd worked with in this life.


There won't be much left of the 'well endowed' by the time the lawyers have finished. I would suspect some sort of compromise will be reached to avoid bankrupting the foundation.


For that to be the case, Poland will have to hire a high profile US law firm. That will not be cheap so I don't see that happening.

_________________
Frustra Nate Vive Devincere
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

- Rikard_Hufschmied
- Smashy
- Doug_Kibbey

On the order of $2M, as I understand it, and that's probably low. The MVTF is likely pretty well-endowed even after Jacques' passing, and I wouldn't want to be the one to mount a legal challenge against whatever firm he'd worked with in this life.


There won't be much left of the 'well endowed' by the time the lawyers have finished. I would suspect some sort of compromise will be reached to avoid bankrupting the foundation.


For that to be the case, Poland will have to hire a high profile US law firm. That will not be cheap so I don't see that happening.


That is something that could happen, depending if Poland is willing to create an example to scare others.

Even if it would cost Poland $100M over 20 years (and in comparison that is not much or a long time for a country), that is much more then the foundation is able to spend in time or money

And Poland is not the only country with such problems, they could be joined by some other countries to put up a statement

Michel

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

Hi,

At least based on the facts here, Poland is unlikely to prevail if they do take this to court. I suspect that "the officials were corrupt and not allowed to do that" won't hold a lot of water, as long as the buyers can demonstrate good faith efforts to obtain clear title. Nations are expected to police their own bureaucracy, for the most part.

Living here on the border of Mexico, we've seen a lot of transactions involving corrupt Mexican officials, and the response is usually a matter of national law. The Mexicans haven't had much luck in overturning such transactions once it crosses the international border, unless an American law was also broken in the process.

Very expensive, and very long.

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Tichenor
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 06, 2007
Posts: 461
Location: Antwerp
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:46 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

- C_Sherman
Winning the case in an American court is going to be an uphill battle.

General consensus is that the trail takes place where de delict has occured, not where the accused or the goods in question are. In this case that would be Poland, and that makes it an entire other game to play.

At the end, even if they win, the Poles will have to buy the restored Panther back for whatever Littlefield has sunk in the project

Again not agree, the buyer has to prove he had no knowledge of the "history" of the goods. As there aren't many Panthers on the market its al going to depend on the judge.

However, as I conclude from the artikel its about a quest from a singel individual and far from a trail. I even think there already has been a trail in Poland about this case, maybe Rafal can shed some light on this.

Michel
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Pzkpfw-e
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jul 21, 2010
Posts: 1202

PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:22 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

If it does get dirty, I'm sure that the HMVF could offer them a tank or two for their museums.
Back to top
View user's profile
bialy-r
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 06, 2009
Posts: 1233
Location: POLAND
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:20 am
Post subject: Re: Littlefield Panther - legal ownership challenge.

To cut this topic.

Nobody believe that the Panther come back to Poland.

In Poland the police shat down the investigation because flow of time.

In this case is only evolved one person Mr Lewandowski (none museum, foundation, institution). Is a little chance that this case get to court in USA and I think none chance that Foundation can loss the Panther or must paid for it.

There would be a chance if that would be a work of art which was lost during WWII or stolen in Poland. But we talk about wreck of tank which is now worth something only because Mr. Littlefield took a great effort to renovate it.

No institution in Poland will go to court because the cost of it are to expensive and the resolute is doubly. Even if in some impossible way the court say that the tank must go back to Poland, there won’t be no materials to give the money back that Mr Littlefield pumped it the wreck during renovation process.


Be honest we can get back the Polish TKS which is in Kubinka (Russia) so in what way we can get back something that was a wreck of a German tank.

In Poland are still two panther tanks hulls and 50% of people interested in history in Poland say that is good that the panther went to USA because in here it wouldn't be restored and still rusting on open air.


I suggest to close the topic
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum