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M4A1 at 4ID museum...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:55 pm
Post subject: M4A1 at 4ID museum...

I visited with the 4ID museum director today and she was quite suprised by the information I was giving her about her various Shermans. While she was suprised by the information I was giving her, I was suprised by her lack of knowledge. She wasn't even sure where these vehicles were that I found in various motor pools. She even admitted that she couldn't track down a small artillery pack gun that was in a motorpool storage somewhere. Then there was the fact that the museum has no clue about actual serial numbers. They literally pick some number on the outside somewhere and call that the serial number for record keeping purposes. Some numbers are stamped, attached plates, castings, or welded markings. I would almost bet that most of the USA numbers were made up or pulled from a hat. They have little to no history on any vehicle that goes further back than from where it was delivered to them from, sad. No wonder most of the plaques are not fully accurate.
This M4A1 had no visable stampings due to thick paint, (I was informed that all the museum area vehicles were painted two years ago). However I did get casting numbers if that helps. Is there anyway to ID this Sherman properly from what I've provided here? The Historical Property Catalog sheet for this tank at the museum shows it was built in 1942 and that it has a 105mm gun.
Neil, The director did give me a 2 and a half page printout of the collection that the museum is responsible for. I need to scrub it because it also includes monuments and such. There are 85 items, and only 37 show serial numbers listed. I'm no expert, but only about 12 of the 37 look to be actual serial numbers. I guess I have my work cut out for me huh? Of course I will be seeking the advise and wisdom of the esteemed AFV News DG members!!! So let the fun begin...

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SHAWN
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:35 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 at 4ID museum...

a nice mix of details on this sherman jeff.

it might be new to me, but it looks like the air cleaners have had a triangular plate added/extended from the rear hull for protection.
later style drive sprocket, with the centers missing...
mix of road wheels/idlers...
the modified M34 mantlet, 1 piece tc cupola with periscopes,
1 piece trans/differential housing
many other late M4A1 details...
it used to have a horn,
looks like it has the raised return roller arms...
what is up with the bolts running down the sides of the hull?
jeff do you have more shots of this vehicle? suspension? top of turret?
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:47 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 at 4ID museum...

These are the only pictures I have of this tank. I took them today around 1400hrs when it had to be about 100+ outside so I didn't linger around long. That uniform and black beret were like an oven. Is there a particular shot or area you want me to focus on that would help ID this vehicle as to its serial number?

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SHAWN
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:34 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 at 4ID museum...

hey jeff, you arent in any way saying that the black berret isnt a practical cover, one that can be used and utilized in many an application for todays modern soldier... anyway... so you are saying it was a little chilly that day.

i would like to see the front of the turret top-- looks like the tc's periscope in front of his cupola, the ventilator, the loaders periscope, and the early indirect fire sight (2 post thingy), but is there something else up there?

it has the larger hull hatches w/ periscope cages (47 degree hull), anything up there in that area that might be different?

on the bogies, any differences in them, are they all the same? are the roadwheels all the same? anything different under the hull, any thing different at the rear engine access doors...

just things i would look at, look for things that might stand out, that type of thing. if you can get a few more shots for me that would be fine. but dont go out of your way for me. the pics would just satisfy my curiousities, my curiousities arent a priority... a few weeks ago, i forgot one very important thing about looking at armor that has been sitting-- it can still provide a service to nature-- nice place to find beehives! i opened an ammo bin on an M19 and discovered the hives forward elements, luckily i scooted and didnt have to deal with an assault.
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SHAWN
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:38 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 at 4ID museum...

ah, turret top side, it is the MaDuece travel lock that i see in the upright position...
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binder001
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:35 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 at 4ID museum...

NNIIICE!!! For the other Shermanoholics out there, could those fittings around the periphery of the hull have been attachment points for supports for extended fenders? This tank kind of looks like it went through either the formal remanufacturing program or at least major depot upgrades. The early turret received a vision cupola and pedestal MG mount (hence the barrel travel clamp Shawn). The extra supports for the dust shields outboard of the aircleaners seem to be a fairly common addition, both from depot and field. Apparently thrown tracks could displace the shield and damage the aircleaners, so extra support was added. This tank also received the rear end "luggage rack" more commonly seen on later M4-series tanks. This tank still has a nice example of the "comb" device on the transmission cover (Jeff, the consensus is that the "comb" held brake cables, pulled through the bow MG port, to assist with shipping the tank). The modified M34 gun mount is interesting as one would suppose that a tank going through the remanufacturing program would have gotten a "proper" M34A1 mount (unless the earlier turret casting didn't lend itself to the change or the factory/depot was just short of M34A1 gun mounts that day).

Jeff, a nice old tank. Thanks for sharing the photos (and any others you care to add - one can't have "too many" Sherman photos).

Gary
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SHAWN
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:12 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 at 4ID museum...

so that is what we are called gary, shermanolohics? do i have to admit it (LOL)?
you are right gary, the bolts were for extended fenders, they match the locations and everything.

all this does is pose more questions, cause now i would really like to take a look in person. and i would like to see the interior...
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SHAWN
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:17 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 at 4ID museum...

and it also appears jeff that this particular lady, your "girl" if you will, has made it to the cover.


don greer illustrated this, made some changes and yet left in many of the same smaller "after the fact" details found on this A1...
very interesting...
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SHAWN
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:19 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 at 4ID museum...

okay, i will admit it. my name is shawn, and i am a shermanoholic.
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toadmanstankpictures
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:19 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 at 4ID museum...

Nice pics Jeff! This Sherman is a M4A1E9. At sometime in its life, probably during late WW II it was remanufactured. The remanufacturing included adding 4" spacers to the bogie mounting brackets to push them out. This was done so extended end connectors or "duckbills" could be put on both sides of the tracks. The small squares welded onto the hull are as Gary said for new fenders. The commander's vision cupola was usually included in the rebuild. The differential cover may be original as they weren't always changed during the rebuild. However, the bogies with upswept return roller arms are probably from the rebuild. Many of the rebuilds would've included a loader's hatch on the turret but in this case, none was added. The M34 gunshield with extension could be seen on quite a few remanufactured M4 types. There are a pair of remanufactured M4E9's in Florida with this set up.

The casting numbers you pulled are the various part numbers and foundry symbols. The "G" in the octagon is the symbol for American Steel Foundries in Granite City, IL.

Jeff, if you get a chance, take a few pics of the rear showing the idler wheel brackets. They would have been modified for the E9 conversion. Also, a pic or two of the lower hull near the suspension would be good. That way we can see if it is a early riveted or later welded type.

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:20 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 at 4ID museum...

Hi Shawn! Hi Folks!

- SHAWN

it has the larger hull hatches


I have to disagree with you Shawn. That vehicle looks like it has the earlier smaller type of hull hatchs. I am just not seeing the larger type which should be showing the hinges which stick up above the level of the hull.

My 2 cents.
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:45 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 at 4ID museum...

Are we all in agreement that this is an M4A1E9? I show the "G" standing for American Steel Foundries East St. Louis Works, Illinois. Is this the same place? I got this casting information from the following site that Kurt Laughlin has; web.inter.nl.net/users...oundry.htm .

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bsmart
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:02 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 at 4ID museum...

- SFC_Jeff_Button
Are we all in agreement that this is an M4A1E9? I show the "G" standing for American Steel Foundries East St. Louis Works, Illinois. Is this the same place? I got this casting information from the following site that Kurt Laughlin has; web.inter.nl.net/users...oundry.htm .


Jeff I just looked at the Foundry Mark list you provided and it shows an E inside an octagon for East St Louis and a G for Granite City. Looking at mapquest they don't look like they were far apart but apparantly were run as seperate operations and had their own marks

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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:13 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 at 4ID museum...

You are correct, I looked at the wrong line. I have used this source quite a bit to help research old armor.

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SHAWN
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:41 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 at 4ID museum...

yes, jeff i agree that that it is the M4A1E9, i see it now. does it have the larger drivers hatches. with a closer look i agree with you roy, it has the 60 degree hull with the smaller drivers hatches.
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