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Still existing Hetzer and G13 tanks
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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binder001
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:32 am
Post subject: Re: Still existing Hetzer and G13 tanks

OK, I'm a Sherman nut and don't follow the panzers very closely. What are the basic differences between a Hetzer and a G13? Were the G13s all WW2 production or are they post war?

Gary B.
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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:35 am
Post subject: Re: Still existing Hetzer and G13 tanks

If a Hetzer is still carrying all its Swiss modifications, then it is a G-13, if it has been back dated to its original configuration, it is once again a Hetzer.


Maybe in this case it becomes an ST-1? Laughing

If a Sherman is modified or rebuilt after the war


While I see your point, G-13s were build after the war, not modified or rebuilt, and they were never called "Hetzer".
You may consider this mostly a matter of semantic and think it's irrelevant, and I not necessarily disagree with you, but it's a somewhat different case than a rebuild Sherman.

Massimo

PS I guess now we could start debating how many G-13's parts came from existing WW II stocks, or were build from scratch Shocked Shocked Shocked
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Garry_Redmon
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:40 am
Post subject: Re: Still existing Hetzer and G13 tanks

The link in Don's post is gone. Here is the new link. www.armorfortheages.co...taPage.htm

Garry

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:44 am
Post subject: Re: Still existing Hetzer and G13 tanks

PS I guess now we could start debating how many G-13's parts came from existing WW II stocks, or were build from scratch


I will start the show Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

The post WW2 G13 had an muzzle brake fitted, the original WW2 Hetzer did not have an muzzle brake

So every thing with an muzzle brake or an threaded barrel end is in fact an G13

Michel

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:15 am
Post subject: Re: Still existing Hetzer and G13 tanks

Most 'G13' are actually G14 with the diesel engine anyway. Its just that everyone has got too lazy to bother to use the correct designation so they remain G13...

G13 & Hetzer have different crew layouts as well...

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:36 am
Post subject: Re: Still existing Hetzer and G13 tanks

G-13 mounted StuK 40 guns instead of Pak 39.

Then, most likely, those StuK 40 guns came from existing stocks, dating back to WW II. So the "post-war" argument is, again, somewhat blurry.

Massimo
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vmmv1
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Still existing Hetzer and G13 tanks

When i restored our Hetzer I was able to find no proof of Hetzers being built after WW2, Battle damaged and abandoned vehicles were brought back to the factory to be repaired, the hulls on the assembly line were finished, but new production vehicles??? when restoring our hetzer back to original, i found all the original mounting points for everything the Swiss removed, including the mounting points for the STG 44's in the interior, Waffen marks all over the vehicle, original tan color on the hull. I agree this is a blurry debate.
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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Still existing Hetzer and G13 tanks

G-13 mounted StuK 40 guns instead of Pak 39.

Then, most likely, those StuK 40 guns came from existing stocks, dating back to WW II. So the "post-war" argument is, again, somewhat blurry.

Massimo


This point is actually very clear, being post-WW2
During WW2 all German Hetzer where equipt with PaK 39 canon and this barrel did not have the option to mount an muzzel brake

The feature of the muzzle brake came from the StuK 40 that was intended to be used on the StuG III

This also means that

So every thing with an muzzle brake or an threaded barrel end is in fact an G13


is still true

Michel

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Still existing Hetzer and G13 tanks

Jim,

Most 'G13' are actually G14 with the diesel engine anyway. Its just that everyone has got too lazy to bother to use the correct designation so they remain G13...


that is not completly true

The Swiss army had 158 G-13 of which 86 where modified to an Saurer-Arbon 12 Cyl Dieselengine with Allison gearbox between 1952 and 1954
These 86 rebuilds became the G-14's

When production of the G-13 ended in 1950 there where not enough spare parts left

Info from the German site panzerbaer.de

However this also means that the one at the Overloon Museum is in fact an G-14, because I have picture's of the Sauer Diesel engine

Michel

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Still existing Hetzer and G13 tanks

- Michel_Krauss
Jim,

Most 'G13' are actually G14 with the diesel engine anyway. Its just that everyone has got too lazy to bother to use the correct designation so they remain G13...


that is not completly true

The Swiss army had 158 G-13 of which 86 where modified to an Saurer-Arbon 12 Cyl Dieselengine with Allison gearbox between 1952 and 1954
These 86 rebuilds became the G-14's

When production of the G-13 ended in 1950 there where not enough spare parts left

Info from the German site panzerbaer.de

However this also means that the one at the Overloon Museum is in fact an G-14, because I have picture's of the Sauer Diesel engine

Michel


I was, of course, referring to those extant today... There are hardly any G13 around

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Still existing Hetzer and G13 tanks

Full's Museum has both a G-13 and a G-14. Same for Fort Pré-Giroud. Thun has one G-13 in static display and at least one G-13 among the runners.

Massimo
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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Still existing Hetzer and G13 tanks

Based on the numbers there is an 46% change that vehicle will be an G-13 and 54% change that it is an G-14

About this designation on G-13 and G-14, according some German speaking site's it is not certain that this was an official designation

It could have been used non-official to make an difference between the 2 type's

The military is good at doing that Wink

Let's get back to topic.
I found an site of the Swiss National Militia Museum with on short history of the G-13 / G-14
When I know what they are telling I will make an new post

It has to do what was bought when, which years, WW2 production or new, etc

Michel

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:53 am
Post subject: Re: Still existing Hetzer and G13 tanks

About this designation on G-13 and G-14, according some German speaking site's it is not certain that this was an official designation


The G-14 designation is hardly ever used even in swiss literature. But I am unable to deny or confirm if it was used by the swiss army at some point

Massimo
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:22 am
Post subject: Re: Still existing Hetzer and G13 tanks

- Massimo_Foti
About this designation on G-13 and G-14, according some German speaking site's it is not certain that this was an official designation


The G-14 designation is hardly ever used even in swiss literature. But I am unable to deny or confirm if it was used by the swiss army at some point

Massimo


It appears on the new G14 manuals (rare) but not on the G13 manuals amended to cover the G14.

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:00 am
Post subject: Re: Still existing Hetzer and G13 tanks

I am not surprised. It's not unlike the Pz 39/LTL-H, half of then use an original gasoline engine, the other half a diesel engine, and the name remained the same

Massimo
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