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TrevorLarkum · Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: PreservedTanks.com

Back from Duxford - had a great day! I took 261 photos, plus 26 video clips of tanks during the MV show, so it's likely to take a few weeks to get it all catalogued and organised. Tomorrow I'm away to Norway for a couple of weeks. Next week I'm on a training course in the East of England, but will try to come back via the Muckleburgh collection.

In the meantime, in honour of our hosts, here are a couple of wingy-thingy pics (scaled down to 800x600):

To keep the armour connection, some impressive radio-controlled models driving around:

Maple_Leaf_Eh · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 517

Good debate guys.

If I had to draw a line in the electrons, my paper library is a curse and a blessing. The digital one is a luxury. Access to content is entirely controlled by the site owner. Even last night, I wanted to send a message to a fellow vehicle restorer whose address was through a favourite website. It was down for some reason and I had to wait until it came back up to make contact.

I agree that internet content is 'prejudiced' and almost designed to be treated lightly. Unless a page's content can be archived, dated and retrieved, it is lost into the ether. Believe me, knowledge management is a huge concern in the three and four-letter agencies.

Dontos · Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: PreservedTanks.com

I've wanted to weigh in on this topic, but have had some reservations.

Reference material has not been a particular problem, but my personal collection has primarily been digital copies. Over the past several years that I have pursued the research trail on the Ontos and other topics, I have been fortunate enough to aquire original printed books & manuals. I am a firm believer of printed references, which help to prove a sound base for topic discussion.

I have yet to aquire personal copies of the Hunnicutt series (due to many factors) but would gladly accept any printed reference material as donations to the "Dontos Collection" ( this especially includes any of the Hunnicutt series) Mr. Green

It is my opinion that reliance on electronic media (internet), is a short-cut, which can provide mis-information due to flawed or false references based on tainted agendas or opinions.
Having seen first hand such 'agenda' based information & mis-information based on heresay, causing chapters of military history to be lost to time thru ignorance.
This has been part of my motivation in some of the work I have completed, and continue to work on.

As for the Internet:
I have posted several sites which are a bit amaturish, however free. Although quite restrictive in webpage content, I strive to present quality content and user friendly appearence & functionality. The convience of being free allows me to provide information for those (5 or 6 other Ontos nuts) who might be interested.

My use of websites came from my interest in publishing some of my work, but initial rejections by several publishers, lead me to my current website presentations. Admittedly, my 'Ontos history' website's content is not representative of the depth of the information that I have dug up, but there doesn't seem to be a sizable market which warrent enough interest.

My personal satisfaction has come in my association with the veterans who served on the vehicle, and they are very appreciative of my efforts, as their service & sacrifices have been brought out of historical obscurity and hopefully preserved for furture generations as a part of Marine Corps History & Armor History.

Sorry for my ramblings, (:roll:) but I felt compelled to add my 02 cents to the subject.

Regards,
Don

TrevorLarkum · Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: PreservedTanks.com

Thanks everyone for the response! I posted at lunchtime, checked again at bedtime, and the thread was empty. I thought it would die without trace - but I guess it was just the effect of different time zones. The fact the site has had 500+ visitors in its first week is a huge encouragement (though I suspect you gentleman are the largest part of that!).

- Maple_Leaf_Eh

There is a narrow course that old school academics followed to establish their credentials. Publish or perish was the only choice. Printed books were vital (in the vitality, sense of the word) to a scholar's knowledge and in return acceptance. Nowadays, free on line content is the expectation, and few people seem interested in building personal libraries. Why pay for something, when everything imagineable is just as available on line?

Your principle of gathering data, sorting it into categories, forming conclusions from that data, and proceeding out into the world with new ideas is stock in trade for an academic. I will be looking forward to your posts and to your page. This forum has had some substantial academic contributors, as has George Bradford's parallel paper AFV News publication. Which I admit to not having paid to subscribe to in several years ...

TW, BA (Hist, Bishop's 82)

Thanks Maple_Leaf_Eh for the comments, I'll take them as positive. That is, I can agree with both points of view - that doing substantial, detailed ('academic') research is the right way to go. And that everyone expects everything to be free on the Internet. I hope I have chosen the right course by having an entirely free website containing valuable information on preserved tanks that is accessible to everyone. At the same time, the serious enthusiasts and researchers will not complain about paying $20 for a book that holds the same information, because that is a permanent and useful tool (especially once you start including your own notes and cross references, etc.). Not to mention, that I actively wish to encourage people to go exploring areas containing preserved tanks (e.g. the Normandy area in Preserved Tanks in France) and so the books are a convenient pocket size for handy reference. You just can't do the same with a website, however portable your laptop.

My view of, and experience in, these matters is probably unusual, being both academically qualified and an ex tank troop leader - I think it gives me a unique viewpoint that I try to bring to bear in my work. Having also been doing it for 25 years also provides its own perspective. The fact that my day job is software development and that as part of it I am currently learning database management is serendipity, and something for which I will be eternally grateful.

- palic

Hi Trevor,
you can add some data to your blog: the vehicles seen during transport are BVP-1 (Czechoslovak-made BMP-1) and 9K113/9P148 Mobile ATGM Launcher (with Konkurs ATGMs) on BRDM-2 chassis (NATO Code AT-5 Spandrel).

Thanks for that, palic, that is exactly the kind of precise detail I strive for. I have expertise in many areas, though particularly Second World War German tanks, but Soviet infantry vehicles (nevermind Czech variations) is not one of those areas. Many thanks for the information; I have added an update to the blog entry.

- bsmart

- Maple_Leaf_Eh

Nowadays, free on line content is the expectation, and few people seem interested in building personal libraries. Why pay for something, when everything imagineable is just as available on line?

But 'free online content' is only there as long as someone is paying the bill. There have been many snippets (or whole rivers) of information that I know I have seen online but are either no longer there or have been lost in the electronic equivalant of the Mississippi River at full flood stage.

One example was the 'AFV Interiors' site that was so popular it couldn't find a home that could handle the traffic.

I agree entirely, and particularly mourn AFV Interiors which was way ahead of most sites in terms of quality and integrity. I think longer term the answer has to be advertising, like Google, so long as it is done carefully and sensitively. I would be only to happy to visit AFV Interiors if it was still around whether it was funded by adverts or not.

- JimWeb

Some people would turn grey and die at the thought of how much money my web site costs me each month - I have had to resort to a web server at home to cut costs as there isn't a free ISP in existance that will carry 12Gb and I still have to pick up the bill for the excess traffic. Hopefully I will be able to switch to an SDSL line soon so it will ease a little.

Those people that don't care are usually the ones who go all apoplectic when you dare suggest a cash contribution would help the site out...

I understand completely, and don't envy you having to host storage-hungry video footage - something I have no plans to try!

- Tichenor

Hi Trevor
My first reaction was d**n the same layout I'm using for my database , witch is still under development, but so wat. It isn't the layout of the site that counts but whats published on it, and that seems to me a great source of reliable information.
Let the next chapter come!
Michel

I'll take that as a compliment - thanks! I'm more than happy to discuss technical details and help people out with stuff.

Thanks everyone, for your responses. Tomorrow I'm at Duxford and will update preservedtanks.com with new pictures as soon as I can after I'm back:

duxford.iwm.org.uk/ser...Event.2126

Tichenor · Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:40 am Post subject: Re: PreservedTanks.com

Hi Trevor
My first reaction was d**n the same layout I'm using for my database , witch is still under development, but so wat. It isn't the layout of the site that counts but whats published on it, and that seems to me a great source of reliable information.
Let the next chapter come!
Michel

JimWeb · Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: PreservedTanks.com

Speaking of contributions - I assume that Aberdeen have abandoned their building plan?

Doug_Kibbey · Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: PreservedTanks.com

- Maple_Leaf_Eh

This forum has had some substantial academic contributors, as has George Bradford's parallel paper AFV News publication. Which I admit to not having paid to subscribe to in several years ...

TW, BA (Hist, Bishop's 82)

This forum also facilitates, via links to some of the websites cited in this thread (among others) and some direct downloads a not-insignificant amount of content and reduction of mis-information by informed participation (mis-impressions are usually quickly corrected, generally in a tactful way).

Contributions to Com-Central hosts by AFV Forum members have not exceeded three, and it might only be two.

JimWeb · Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: PreservedTanks.com

I did run the site as a subscription site for a while - what killed that wasn't the complaints about it being a sub-site but the fact that passwords & logins were constantly being posted on crack sites. I'm having a change of tactics now and going for the 'subscribe for enhanced content' route I think but thats going to be a long time coming...

I still have about 15 cubic metres of images and notes to add to the web site - less the stuff which comes in on a daily basis. And your right adding stuff to the web site beats the hell out of watching some of the mindless drivel that appears on the TV!

Now if I could only persuade every regular visitor to the site to donate just $1 per month I would be able to afford a T1 line....

the_shadock · Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: Re: PreservedTanks.com

Same "problem" for me, my 2 websites are free for visitors. I publish free galleries of AFVs on the Tanks in France website, and my aim is to picture each tank that is in the "France Historical AFVs Register".

It's quite expensive for me in petrol/gas, museums fees to pay and overall it requires a lot of time.

But what would I do if I didn't do that? Well I prefer to do that instead of watching stupid things on the TV !!

Pierre-Olivier

JimWeb · Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: Re: PreservedTanks.com

[quote="bsmart"]

- Maple_Leaf_Eh

Nowadays, free on line content is the expectation, and few people seem interested in building personal libraries. Why pay for something, when everything imagineable is just as available on line?

But 'free online content' is only there as long as someone is paying the bill.

Some people would turn grey and die at the thought of how much money my web site costs me each month - I have had to resort to a web server at home to cut costs as there isn't a free ISP in existance that will carry 12Gb and I still have to pick up the bill for the excess traffic. Hopefully I will be able to switch to an SDSL line soon so it will ease a little.

Those people that don't care are usually the ones who go all apoplectic when you dare suggest a cash contribution would help the site out...

bsmart · Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: Re: PreservedTanks.com

- Maple_Leaf_Eh

Nowadays, free on line content is the expectation, and few people seem interested in building personal libraries. Why pay for something, when everything imagineable is just as available on line?

But 'free online content' is only there as long as someone is paying the bill. There have been many snippets (or whole rivers) of information that I know I have seen online but are either no longer there or have been lost in the electronic equivalant of the Mississippi River at full flood stage.

One example was the 'AFV Interiors' site that was so popular it couldn't find a home that could handle the traffic.

Then there is the way we access information. Although in the last year I have finally begun to listen to books on CD during my commute (I finally realized that listening to traffic reports doesn't do much good when there is no viable alternative route Crying or Very sad

) I still have a book at my bedside that I try and read some from every night before I admit that I am actually asleep, one in the truck that I am working through at lunch each day and yes two that I grab when I am heading to the bathroom (The one at work is a thinner paperback that slides inconspiciously into a pocket Rolling Eyes

)

This is all in addition to the time I spend looking at content online.

Each method has it's advantages and disadvantages.

palic · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Mar 03, 2006 Posts: 172

Hi Trevor,
you can add some data to your blog: the vehicles seen during transport are BVP-1 (Czechoslovak-made BMP-1) and 9K113/9P148 Mobile ATGM Launcher (with Konkurs ATGMs) on BRDM-2 chassis (NATO Code AT-5 Spandrel).

Joe_D · Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:27 am Post subject: Re: PreservedTanks.com

Maple Leaf said:

Why pay for something, when everything imagineable is just as available on line?

But it's not, not really. Too many of these on-line fact sites are filled with bad info or are supporting a particular point of view, many times bending the truth or out right lying. The real shame is when some well intentioned person erects an info plaque based on a web search for a VFW, or in some case a museum for a particular vehicle, the bad info is now taken for fact. "It must be because I read it at the museum."

Prime example is the unnamed M113 advocate that some of our DG members have dealt with in the past.

Joe D

Maple_Leaf_Eh · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 517

There is a narrow course that old school academics followed to establish their credentials. Publish or perish was the only choice. Printed books were vital (in the vitality, sense of the word) to a scholar's knowledge and in return acceptance. Nowadays, free on line content is the expectation, and few people seem interested in building personal libraries. Why pay for something, when everything imagineable is just as available on line?

Your principle of gathering data, sorting it into categories, forming conclusions from that data, and proceeding out into the world with new ideas is stock in trade for an academic. I will be looking forward to your posts and to your page. This forum has had some substantial academic contributors, as has George Bradford's parallel paper AFV News publication. Which I admit to not having paid to subscribe to in several years ...

TW, BA (Hist, Bishop's 82)

TrevorLarkum · Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:19 am Post subject: PreservedTanks.com

I've put together a new website to put online the contents of my books on preserved tanks. I've started by putting up Preserved German Tanks 1: A7V to Panzer IV first. The site's still a bit rough, but I thought you guys might be interesting in seeing it even at an early stage:

www.preservedtanks.com

I've got loads of information backed up that I can use to update the books, and I'll add that soon - after that I hope you guys will be up for helping me with any remaining corrections/updates required.

I've also revamped the existing site at Armour Archive. The idea is to keep the commercial stuff (selling books) in a separate site from the preserved tanks information so people can just browse. I'll upload some more of my free PDF booklets soon too.

Any feedback appreciated. As the sites develop I'll post some more info in this thread.

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