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MVTF M48 Prototype
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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toadmanstankpictures
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:02 pm
Post subject: MVTF M48 Prototype

Here are a few pics that I took today. I have to dig the others out of my files. If I can't find them, I'll shoot additional ones next week.




You'll notice that two of the return roller stations have been plated over.

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MarkHolloway
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:48 pm
Post subject: Re: MVTF M48 Prototype

I think there is more than one broken torsion bar.

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C_Sherman
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:38 am
Post subject: Re: MVTF M48 Prototype

Hi,

According to Joe D.'s treatise on M48 turret part numbers, this turret is one of the earlier types. The "Ser NO-1" might lead one to believe that this is actually the first of them. The hull is a gasser, which fits with the early turret type, but the business with the return rollers and short gun tube is mystifying.

Chuck

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bsmart
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:56 pm
Post subject: Re: MVTF M48 Prototype

I wonder if the 'gub' is actually just a weighted tube put in place to balance the vehicle that was used as part of a test program. If the vehicle was being used for automotive tests it wouldn't need a working gun but may need a balanced turret

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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:24 pm
Post subject: Re: MVTF M48 Prototype

There's a lot of contradictions with this tank,

As far as Chuck's "SER-1" idea about that identifying her as a prototype, I have to disagree, The Casting mark is from the Wheeling West Virginia foundry, so most likely this turret was their first in the series of "7364154" turrets they produced. The Stowage brackets in the front of the turret clearly indicate it's an M48 Turret. T48 turrets had them in the rear.



Notice She doesn't have the tension wheels between the sprocket and #6 road wheels. Another T48 ID feature along with the earlier bustle rack design. Below is a picture of a T48 turret to include the casting marks. Notice it's the same PN but the Series is 28. This turret is on the T95 at Fort McCoy. The stowage bracket is damaged from the impact of a round but most of it still remains. They used T48 turrets on some of the T95 prototypes during testing.



What's weird is this tank has what appears to be a .50 cal barrel protruding from the Co-Ax port. T48's did use the .50 Cal for a Co-Ax on the left side and had a .30 cal on the right. M48's dropped the .50 and replaced it with the .30 Cal, the port for the .30 Cal was then used for the Gunners telescope, something the T48 did not have. It could be a mock up done for display, seen M2 barrels protruding from M60A3 Co-Ax ports before.

Looking at the support rollers, it's obvious all they did was unbolt the #2 and #4 assemblies and plated them over, since on M48's they weren't welded on like the M60 series.



Three support roller hulls (M48A2) would not have the bolt holes machined like the one below.



I think the hull was used for automotive tests. Which would explain the newer rear fenders first used on M48A2's. She's a large hatch hull (M48A1) with an M48 turret. So either she was never upgraded to the M1 cupola or more than likely a lash up of a hull using an excess turret that was laying around that they put on her to simulate weight, sorta like Bob said. The more I look at that tube though, the more I believe it's fake. It definitely isn't the 152mm test turret used at White Sands. Which leads me to believe this whole turret was just slapped on to make a display at one time. Only pictures of the inside will help clear this up.

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Kurt_Laughlin
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:27 am
Post subject: Re: MVTF M48 Prototype

I was looking through Hunnicut and the photos of T48 #2 show it with a CFM-W turret. I can't tell which SER it is though. My guess is that several foundries were brought on board at the start in order to assure an adequate supply for production.

SER 1 might have even been mild steel, to prove out the patterns. It would weigh the same as an armor steel version, which would make it perfect for automotive tests.

I've been wondering if anyone has the PN off any of the T95/M48 turrets.

KL
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:40 am
Post subject: Re: MVTF M48 Prototype

Kurt,

The McCoy T95 with M48 turret has two PN's,

7363851
7364154
Series 28.

McCoy T95 Turret PN's

Also the Foundry mark is unknown to me, being an octagon with a hash at the 6 o'clock position. Earlier discussions with Dontos confirmed this is the original turret she had when being shot at on the range. The unique smoke grenade brackets helped confirm this.

BTW, Thanks a million for all the stuff you sent.

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Kurt_Laughlin
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:06 am
Post subject: Re: MVTF M48 Prototype

Now that's bizarre . . .

A guy sent me photos of the M48 in Bodfish CA and it has the same dual numbering. It is SN 58 and 7363851-2, a not uncommon indicator that it was made to revision 2 of the drawing.

I have noticed that little leg on other postwar ASF-C symbols. Interestingly, it also appeared on early ASF Cast Armor plant symbols, such as this one on Pierre-Oliver's site:

the.shadock.free.fr/Ta...age21.html

but was clearly absent on the later version of the symbol:

the.shadock.free.fr/Ta...age11.html

It looks like they reverted to the old style after the war.

My guess is that this was an orientation mark for assembling the letter patterns. With the little serif on the top of the C, people might have thought it was a goofed up G or something . . .

the.shadock.free.fr/Ta...age31.html

I dunno.

KL
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:15 am
Post subject: Re: MVTF M48 Prototype

- Kurt_Laughlin


I've been wondering if anyone has the PN off any of the T95/M48 turrets.

KL


Kurt - I can dig through my pictures of the Weirton T95 ( I made a trip there a month or so ago that is still in the camera) and see if I have the markings off that turret if you haven't already captured them

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:18 am
Post subject: Re: MVTF M48 Prototype

Not to throw a wrench in the works,.....I did have these images







They are (I assume...) taken of the T95 that ended up as a range target, which is rescued and then (& now) on display at Ft McCoy.

These were located in a T95 file which also had the 'discovery' images of the McCoy T95. Most seem to be circe the 1960's/70's.

Regards
Don
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:29 pm
Post subject: Re: MVTF M48 Prototype

Don,

Top image is of a T95 with an M48A1 turret. M1 cupola and newer style bustle rack makes it so. Also, on this turret you can barely make out what looks like the General Steel Foundries mark on the side (Shield with "G" and Stars above) below the grunt rail. The McCoy tank has a different turret, so unless they swapped them before she became a target, She's not the same tank.

Bottom two images are of an M19 cupola from an M60. PN 10873386 helps ID this. The turret contour is that of an M60 (A0). Images are interesting since they are demonstrating a simple interrupter for the searchlight. This is not the production version. It was hinged to allow it to fold down. Weld points are different. I believe these pictures got mixed in with the T95 file. M19 cupola would not fit on an M48 turret without an adapter ring (was tried), ring diameter is too large and the over hang interfered with the loaders hatch.

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toadmanstankpictures
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:38 pm
Post subject: Re: MVTF M48 Prototype

So, if I were to take a bunch of pics of this beast, say tomorrow, how should I list it on my site? Hopefully, I'll be able to find a dataplate inside of it that will help us out. If not, should I title it "M48 Testbed"?

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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:46 pm
Post subject: Re: MVTF M48 Prototype

Chris,

Beats me, Getting inside would determine a lot.

Waiting anxiously for results

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toadmanstankpictures
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:16 pm
Post subject: Re: MVTF M48 Prototype

Quick update.
There weren't any plates that I could see in the vehicle interior. The main gun is a fake as there is a metal bar emplaced in the gunmount. I'm at work right now so I'll post some pics later tonight.

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:14 pm
Post subject: Re: MVTF M48 Prototype

Chris,
Did you ever post the interior pics? Did we come to any further resolution on this M48?

Neil
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