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JG300-Ascout · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: Great pics!

sharpshooter-maj.com/h...twtd02.htm

Go to bottom of page for more in-flight wingtip-to-wingtip shots of F4's.

More good shots on this page:

sharpshooter-maj.com/h...oshoot.htm

JG300-Stoopy · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: Re: Great pics!

TON of great pics!!!

WOW!!!!! Love the F-4, I grew up as a little kid watching them haul @ss down on the deck out in the desert near George AFB where we lived!!! Dig the idea of a "Phan-con"!

What a great resource....

Joe_D · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: Great pics!

I remember those Phantoms (F4G's).

Used to see them fly over all the time at Irwin. George is no more and was pretty trashed when I went through there in 2002 on the way to Forbes Field in Kansas.

Here's an F4E I took a picture of back in the 70's. Bob Smart might recognize the location.

Joe D

JG300-Ascout · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Great pics!

- Joe_D

I remember those Phantoms (F4G's).

Used to see them fly over all the time at Irwin. George is no more and was pretty trashed when I went through there in 2002 on the way to Forbes Field in Kansas.

Here's an F4E I took a picture of back in the 70's. Bob Smart might recognize the location.

Joe D

Joe,

I think most or all of those pictured are F4E's. All on missions to north of the seventeenth parallel in that series.

Fine looking planes.

JG300-Ascout · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Great pics!

Bob Smart or anybody:

What are the small inlets forward of the pilot's cockpit and low on the nose for?

bsmart · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Great pics!

- JG300-Stoopy

TON of great pics!!!

WOW!!!!! Love the F-4, I grew up as a little kid watching them haul @ss down on the deck out in the desert near George AFB where we lived!!! Dig the idea of a "Phan-con"!

What a great resource....

I only spent a few weeks at George AFB and don't have very fond memories. It was in the 'spring' of 1982. We were involved in a huge combined exercise (Gallant Eagle 82) that was designed to show the 'Rapid Deployment Force' could deploy and fight anywhere in the world in a very short time.

It was a deployment on the level (or actually above the level) of the initial response to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait 8 years later. Airlift was in such short supply that there were C-141Bs that were rushed throuh the 'stretch' program (cut the airframe in front and in back of the wing and insert plugs ) and were flying with Zinc chromate green plugs in front and in back of the wings and the interiors unfinished (as if any airlifter looked like the interior was finished Rolling Eyes

) because they didn't take the time to finish painting them before putting them back in service

Anyway we were living in a tent city and the weather was nasty. The few locals we talked to swore that it was the coldest April they could remember. I remember it raining, snowing, sleeting and hailing in one 24 hour period. On top of that the supply people only planned for enough diesel fuel to heat the tents based on 'normal' weather. Then the fuel supply pipeline into the base had problems with water contamination and they had to start running tank truck convoys over the highway just to proivide fuel for the aircraft let alone provide heat for the tents.

The 82 Airborne flew non stop from the East Coast on the second or third day and jumped in. The problem was that the winds were marginal for the jump when they took off and by the time they arrived were above the normal safety zone. a decision was made that they would jump anyway since this was an 'operational need'. Our pilots were flying top cover for the jump and they said it was spectacular but we heard later that casualties from the jump were heavier than expected. I provided a an airborne BG a ride in our flightline truck when I saw two 'army types' hobbling along the road from towards the command complex. He and the captain with him had both sprained or broken legs and were 'walking' from the Hospital to the CP on crutches. He confirmed there had been several deaths but his one comment has stuck with me. We had heard 5 jumpers died. He said 'Thats true and it sounds terrible and will be all over the news. But when we lose one jumper in a jump of 250 troops no one notices. We put over 7500 people on the ground today. we were actually afraid we would lose 7-10. Overall we did better than we had any right to given the weather'.

Hopefully we began learning lessons about how to deploy large forces (and redeploy them afterwards, The confusion in trying to get everyone back home was terrible) that helped out later but we made a lot of mistakes that time.

bsmart · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Great pics!

- JG300-Ascout

Bob Smart or anybody:

What are the small inlets forward of the pilot's cockpit and low on the nose for?

Cooling and possibly Ram air for the M61 Vulcan gun. Not sure if it is just cooling or if it also provides power to a RAT (Ram Air Turbine). They also are on some F-4C &D aircraft. I can't remember if they are on teh Navy F-4Bs. The older radar system put out a lot of heat so it needed a lot of air flowing past it.

Pod mounted M-61s used a RAT to generate the power to work the gun. I'm not sure if the one in the F-4E used that or power from the main power bus.

I don't recognize the ZF tailcode I used to have a list of some of the tailcodes and remember some but ZF doesn't ring any bells.

I know ZZ was the code used by the wing at Kadena when they converted from F-4s to F-15s (about 1979 or so)

Joe_D · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Great pics!

Ascout,

I was commenting on the F4's Stoopy said he saw. IIRC by '87 George was a "Wild Weasel" outfit. Sometimes they'd come in so low you'd swear they would hit our antennas. On many occasions you'd feel the heat. Most of the time they'd play the RED force, depending on the ROE. With the A10's being Blue.

Gallant Eagle, big stink over that jump, was all over Stars and Stripes. Described how the winds dragged some troopers to death once they landed. The comments by the paratroopers are so true. There's a reason why they get jump pay (I don't think it's enough). The single fatalities usually never even make local news. The two years I spent at NTC we had at least one fatality per rotation (14 rotations per year back then). Everything from Heat Stroke, to soldiers being crushed by tanks. Certain units were notorious for having fatalities. It was just a dangerous place.

Joe D

BTW: The F4E picture is from Langley

JG300-Ascout · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Great pics!

- Joe_D

Ascout,

I was commenting on the F4's Stoopy said he saw. IIRC by '87 George was a "Wild Weasel" outfit. Sometimes they'd come in so low you'd swear they would hit our antennas. On many occasions you'd feel the heat.

...and smell the fumes? Smokey devils, ain't they? Laughing

bsmart · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: Great pics!

- Joe_D

Ascout,

I was commenting on the F4's Stoopy said he saw. IIRC by '87 George was a "Wild Weasel" outfit. Sometimes they'd come in so low you'd swear they would hit our antennas. On many occasions you'd feel the heat. Most of the time they'd play the RED force, depending on the ROE. With the A10's being Blue.

Gallant Eagle, big stink over that jump, was all over Stars and Stripes. Described how the winds dragged some troopers to death once they landed. The comments by the paratroopers are so true. There's a reason why they get jump pay (I don't think it's enough). The single fatalities usually never even make local news. The two years I spent at NTC we had at least one fatality per rotation (14 rotations per year back then). Everything from Heat Stroke, to soldiers being crushed by tanks. Certain units were notorious for having fatalities. It was just a dangerous place.

Joe D

BTW: The F4E picture is from Langley

I didn't even think about Langley

but yea the one thing that might have IDed it is behind the plane. I'm guessing it is the transient area near building 757 (the old hangers, the Tower was on Building 756, Most of my time I was assigned in 755)

Yea we heard several troopers were drug on the ground and at least one was hit by a cargo load that was misdropped .

After the main exercise was over the Fighter types set up a 'King of the Hill' competition in the Airspace. The incoming flights would que up with the AWACs and take on whoever currently controlled the sky. We had Navy, Marine, Air Guard, and I think even Canadian aircraft 'playing'

It wasn't much of a contest actually. 1 TFW queued up 8 Eagles and sent one pair into the space. They took it from a Navy F-14 pair. The second Eagle pair watched from the outside until the first two ran low on fuel then 'tagged in' the third pair then got ready while the 1st pair hit a tanker. The fourth pair did an overwatch (Just to make sure no one tried to sneak in while the defenders were busy, you can't trust fighter pilots to play by the rules Mr. Green

) I don't think we lost control of the space the entire time (although the Marines almost did with the Harriers. As one of our pilots said "Those f%#@ers don't fight fair, they STOP" but we had some experience with them from Red Flag Laughing

) They rotated through several times (You burn gas fast in air combat) I wish I had some gun footage from that day or better yet the ACMI recordings that could be played back like a video game. Just the UHF radio we were listemning to was great.

Joe_D · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Great pics!

Yep,

I think it was called the transit apron. Being TAC HQ's all sorts of cool stuff would fly in. Riding the bus back from school we'd check to see what was out there. If there was, my friend and I would try to get back out that way to snap a picture without getting caught by the Flight Line SP's. Real pain was getting from the LTA side back over before it got dark. Quite a ways to go when you depend on your feet or a bicycle. I got maybe 8 or 9 decent pictures of different aircraft. None are flying today and some were just about retired at the time (F100). This hobby lasted about 2 months. Cost of film, distance, and lack of decent pictures ended it. That and spending more time with the opposite sex. The latter being the main reason Wink

.

Joe D

Shades · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: Great pics!

I used to visit my Aunt and Uncle on the not-exactly-big-city Isle of Wight in the Summer as a pre-teen and watched those beggars buzzing the beaches.
T'was most excellent (as the pre-teens of today might say).

Only other thing I enjoyed on that overgrown sand-castle was the Hendrix festival.., except.., I WAS ON THE OUTSIDE!!!
WHAHHHHH!!!

[edit: Oh.., and all the Red Skwirrells... Mr. Green

]

JG300-Stoopy · Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:51 am Post subject: Re: Great pics!

- Joe_D

Ascout,

I was commenting on the F4's Stoopy said he saw. IIRC by '87 George was a "Wild Weasel" outfit. Sometimes they'd come in so low you'd swear they would hit our antennas. On many occasions you'd feel the heat. Most of the time they'd play the RED force, depending on the ROE. With the A10's being Blue.

Heya Joe,

I lived in the High Desert south east of George AFB from '62 to about '72, and '62 was maybe a bit early for the F4's but I was only 1 year old at the time anyway and my a/c recognition skills were kinda fuzzy at that age....but anyway, back then the desert was very sparsely populated and it was very easy to be able to see all the way across most of the valley that comprises the Hesperia / Apple Valley / Victorville area. I literally grew up with F4's in the distance and sonic booms and have many great memories of that era.

By around 2nd or 3rd grade my buddies and I were accomplished aircraft spotters and our regular dirt-lot baseball games would be interrupted by the sound of one or two VERY loud jets somewhere across the valley, and we'd all stop and gather together and try to spot 'em. We couldn't always find them but got better at it once we learned to look WAY ahead of the sound, and they'd be down low on the deck just HAULING. This of course led to the revelation that they were supersonic! We'd amassed a good collection of aviation knowledge by that time and had heard about Mach numbers, and the accepted scientific method to calculate Mach was to estimate the plane lengths between where we saw the plane, and where the sound was coming from behind it, and approx. each 10 plane lengths between the plane and the sound it made would equal one Mach number...so it wasn't unusual to see those babies doing Mach 2 about 500 feet above ground, and there were rumors of a Phantom equipped with special engines that could do Mach 3 or 4, easy...but we only saw it a few times and it was always further away than the rest, so gathering intel on it was pretty hard. Smile

My Dad was building a rock retaining wall around the front yard of our house and he and I would get up early and head out in his old Ford pickup truck and go out to Bell mountain, east of George AFB, to go get rocks for it. I wasn't sure why we had to go so far just for rocks, although I think I understand his reasoning now. Anyway, one morning we were picking out rocks that met our criteria and tossing them in the bed of his pickup, and this perfect shadow of a jet airplane came across the ground right through where we were standing as an F4 came over the top of the hill directly overhead....I remember covering my ears and turning to watch it's shadow ripple across the desert floor. COOL!

We moved away and my Mom and I returned in about '77 or so, and I was working at a polishing shop. One of the older employees lived in Lucerne, well east of George AFB, and apparently those F4 drivers REALLY went to town out in that area. He had a private well on his property and a very high water tank that made a good reference point for them I guess, because he said he was buzzed all the time...he'd called the base commander a couple of times to complain, and said the base commander asked if he got a tail number or anything, to which he replied "Hell I can tell you what color eyes that sumb!tch had!!!!"

If I remember right there were some fatalities as well, particularly a story about a pilot who had chosen to ride it in rather than eject over a populated area (may have been Victorville)...but that's maybe local urban legend, I don't know.

Anyway...lots of good memories. Was sad to hear of George closing down when it happened even though I'd moved away again long before it did, and even sadder to see the F4's being retired. But even the desert in that area has changed so much itself, and isn't the grandeur it used to be either, so it's just as well I guess. What a chapter, and I feel lucky to have seen a bit of it.

EDIT: Dang almost forgot! Seeing the Thunderbirds perform in F-4's at Geroge AFB when I was 9 or 10 years old...damn, now THAT was an airshow!!!!

RCAF_Wingnut · Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Great pics!

Gentilemen, I spent the better part of 11 years working around F-4D, F-4E, and F-4G aircraft, while I was in the US Air Force. Oh, and Joe_D, I was one of those flight line Security Police (Sp's). Of course the aircraft pictured above was an F-4E. That section under the nose with the black front was a 20mm Vulcan cannon. The engine intakes are located on the sides of the aircraft, behind the pilot in front, and between him and the back seater. There are 2 members of the aircrew. The rear seater is called a weapon systems operator, or Wizzo. He helps the pilot operate the main weapons, except the nose cannon, and identifies the targets for him. There are two small air inlets down low on the fuselage in front , and I think they were inlets to help keep some of the electronics cool, and for instrumentation on the plane.

Here is a closer view of the E model so you can see the intakes and the gun.

The D model didn't have a gun as a permanent part of the plane. Later in the Vietnam war, it was determined that the aircraft was unable to defend itself effectively with just missiles, and they made centerline pods that contained a 20MM cannon. It wasn't as accurate as the E model because it was brought in as a stop gap measure until they could get aircraft with cannons mounted as part of the plane. The targeting system wasn't linked with the gun pod, so the pilot had to guess the deflection when shooting. the tracers loaded in the gun helped a little. In the E model, the gun targeting system was linked with the gun, so the plane could do help with deflection when in gun combat.

Here is an example of the D model, and you can tell it doesn't have the cannon in the nose. In fact, it was one of the aircraft that I work around, note the SP on the tail. All of the F-4s at Spangdahlem (SP) had those letters.

Here is a couple ideas of what the SUU-23/A gun pods looked like that was used on the F-4D.

The F-4G look like the F-4E except the section where the gun was, didn't have an opening in the front for a gun. It was used as a sensor that detected anti-aircraft missile radar systems in operation. The G model, also called the Wild Weasel was used to locate and destroy those Sam radar sites so the rest of the bombers and fighters could go into a target area without the threat of being shot down by the missiles. The crews set themselves up as a target to get the enemy to target them, and when they did, it was too late. The Harm anti-radiation missile system carried on the G was already locked and launched.

Here is a picture of an F-4G. The two outer missiles are Harms. You can tell by the clipped fins at the rear of the missile. Sparrow missiles have fins like the front ones on the Harms, both front and rear.

JG300-Stoopy · Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Great pics!

There was a very good documentary on the F4 Phantom on the Military Channel I saw a while back, that went into detail about that gun pod - there were two versions, as I understand? Something to do with the first version having some problems with the generator, which had a pop-out design to put it into the windstream and spool up, so as to power the gun.

They had a lot of footage of that gun pod in action and it was pretty impressive.....

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