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Churchill tank in use in US forces?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:07 pm
Post subject: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

Hello,

I wonder if the Churchill tank was ever in use in the US Army forces during WW2, or at least used by UK troops in US fighting zones.
I've seen a photo of US troops on a Churchill tank and there is a Churchill Crocodile as a monument in Brest (France), which was a city liberated by the US troops in August 1944. The tank is said to have been used because of its flamethrower, to conquer a fortress. Any guess?

Pierre-Olivier

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bsmart
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

I think most pictures of Churchills with US troops would be in one of two instances

1) During Market Garden US paratroopers teamed up with British armor as it moved up the series of landing zones

2) later in the War US troops under 9th Army were put under 21st Army Group (Montgomery) control and worked with British troops. They were the Army on the leftmost flank of the 12 Army Group (Bradley) and were put under 21 AG control since they were on the North side of the Bulge in late December '44. They remained under 21 AG control through the Rhineland campaign so it is possible that at times they had Churchill unis assisting.

The 9th Army had also been used to cature Brest when they were first made operational (September '44?) but I don't know if they used any Churchills at that time. I can see where some sloppy research would be looking for info about 9th Army planning on using it for the early operations, find pictures tagged as 9th Army from later and connect the two

As a caveat I did this off the cuff from memory so you may want to look into the details further

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binder001
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

There were several instances of specialized armour from 79 Armoured Division working with US troops in the ETO. I don't have my references right in front of me but I know that Churchill Crocodiles were used to support US troops during the Roer River campaign, and I think other.

Gary
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Dubliner
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

No operational American Churchills that I can recall in David Fletcher's books, but he does not cover all the "funnies" used in ETO and MTO. Churchill didn't reach the Australians until the war in the Pacific was almost over, so PTO cases for sure.

As far as operating with Churchills...

I believe Churchills of the Guards Armored Brigade (Coldstream or Grenader Guards Battalion I don't remember which one) gave a lift to the 82nd Airborne during Varsity. There are several well know pictures of Churchills loaded down with American Paras after the jump across the Rhine.
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

Thanks for your replies.

The photo showing troops on a Churchill could show either paratroopers or troops of the 9th Army. On the photo, one can see a GI with a Sturmgewehr rifle, so the picture may have been taken rather in 1945, IMO.

I said that Brest was liberated in August 1944, but it was indeed in mid-September 1944, Bob you're right.

I've found a website explaining that the liberation of the Fort Montbarey in Brest required the use of flamethrower tanks. The US troops didn't have any of that kind of tanks, so they asked the British troops to carry one there, to conquer the Fort.

P-O

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piney
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

not a match, but an interesting tidbit I came across that I hadn't seen refered to before

It was during this time that the Corps discovered that British Churchill tanks could be fitted with guns from wrecked U.S. Sherman tanks. Since the guns of the Sherman tank could use a wider range of ammunition, substituting the Sherman gun extended the capability of the Churchill tank. The Corps outfitted two tank regiments with Sherman guns, and those regiments served in Italy.


source here

www.almc.army.mil/alog.../MS875.htm

Piney
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claude_GILLONO
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

It's true some Crocodiles were used to support the US Forces that liberated Brest, with British crews.
HTH
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

- claude_GILLONO
It's true some Crocodiles were used to support the US Forces that liberated Brest, with British crews.
HTH

I don't doubt you but for completeness do you have a reference?

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Shadow_Banshee
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

www.rapid-fire.uk.com/...fences.pdf from a game but mentions units etc maybe the senario is taken from fact??
pagesperso-orange.fr/a...cit4an.htm

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bsmart
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

- Shadow_Banshee
http://www.rapid-fire.uk.com/brest_defences.pdf from a game but mentions units etc maybe the senario is taken from fact??


Well it's a start Smile I've got some stuff on the 29th Division I'll have to dig out and see if it mentions it. With the 29th being the local National Guard Divison I've gathered a couple books on it

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tanker2010
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

- piney
not a match, but an interesting tidbit I came across that I hadn't seen refered to before

It was during this time that the Corps discovered that British Churchill tanks could be fitted with guns from wrecked U.S. Sherman tanks. Since the guns of the Sherman tank could use a wider range of ammunition, substituting the Sherman gun extended the capability of the Churchill tank. The Corps outfitted two tank regiments with Sherman guns, and those regiments served in Italy.


source here

www.almc.army.mil/alog.../MS875.htm

Piney


It was called the N.A.75 . The N.A. stood for Noth Africa. They were used quite a bit in Italy.
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

Recently I read an article by one of the officers in charge of that project explaining what was involved to make it work. There were challanges such as the loader and gunner being on opposite sides of the turret in the two tanks that had to be overcome. I wish I could remember where I read it

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Jason_Bobrowich
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

- bsmart
- claude_GILLONO
It's true some Crocodiles were used to support the US Forces that liberated Brest, with British crews.
HTH

I don't doubt you but for completeness do you have a reference?


Pick up Osprey's "Churchill Infantry Tank 1941-1951".

There is text describing the actions of Churchills of 9 RTR and the 147 Regiment in support of the U.S. 10th Division in October 1944.

There is further text about the 6th Guards Tank Brigade supporting the U.S. 17th Airborne Division across the Rhine and then on to Munster.

There is an image of a 4th Coldstream Guards Churchill I would think taken in early 1945 with a bunch of U.S. 17th Airborne Division Troopers catching a casual ride on the back deck.
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Tanklord
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

Bob, I am like you, I read the same article about changing the guns in the Churchill. I am at work, but I think it may be in one of this past years AFV News.
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

- Jason_Bobrowich
- bsmart
- claude_GILLONO
It's true some Crocodiles were used to support the US Forces that liberated Brest, with British crews.
HTH

I don't doubt you but for completeness do you have a reference?


Pick up Osprey's "Churchill Infantry Tank 1941-1951".

There is text describing the actions of Churchills of 9 RTR and the 147 Regiment in support of the U.S. 10th Division in October 1944.

There is further text about the 6th Guards Tank Brigade supporting the U.S. 17th Airborne Division across the Rhine and then on to Munster.

There is an image of a 4th Coldstream Guards Churchill I would think taken in early 1945 with a bunch of U.S. 17th Airborne Division Troopers catching a casual ride on the back deck.


I was specifically looking for ant reference to them being used against Brest in august/September 1944. Given my comments about U.S. 9th Army being attached to 21 AG in late 44 I have no doubt they supported US troops in the surge into Germany

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