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Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:09 pm
Post subject: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more

Back now from a lengthy trip (and with about thirty international visitors here, so still very busy...this will take a while to get posted in it's entirety...took about 200 pics).

Spent the better part of two days at El Museo Histórico del Ejército Argentino ( www.dahe.ejercito.mil....index.html ) where the reception was most gratifying and they are keenly interested in the activities of the AFV Association as demonstrated in the AFV registries (copies of the Polish, French, and American versions I carried as examples of the activities of the group). On Sunday I had a nice tour courtesy of Principal Segado and Cintia Disario and returned on Monday (they are normally closed then) for a meeting with LTC Solanet and COL Sanchez to explain my purpose (gather info and numbers, if possible) on the Shermans and any other historic vehicles in their collection and elsewhere around the country. The hospitality bordered on the overwhelming and I was granted excellent access and contact information to commanders at two additional brigades where they have some vehicles (one in the hometown of a business contact so followup and pictures should be a simple matter). I'll be looking for members to join our forum who can maybe help us with an "Argentina registry" since I was told as many as 2-3 hundred M3 and/or M4's may have been acquired by Argentina over the years so we just need to find the right kindred "fanatic" to help us track them down. I'll be working on that, have a long list of names, numbers, emails....

It was possible to access all the Shermans they had, inside and out. From what I could tell, all numbers that might have been on the rear have been removed. I found no numbers on the front except raised numbers on diff cases...I have pics of those, but don't think that's what we're looking for. I did get a look at the books and the Argentine Internal Army number system corresponds in no way to the mfg. number, but I wrote them down anyway (I have three chassis numbers of 01207, 09025, and 09041 for three confirmed M4's. The chassis for the M31 ARV is 009628 and I have pics of the numbers on the diff cases. One M4 is locked up, but I got through-the-pistol-port shots. The one at the Defense Minstry I only got quick external shots of. There is one at the museum with a 75mm gun and one 76.2mm(?) gun dismounted. Most were upgunned to 105mm.

Oh...Argentine Army Doctrine seemed to favor three-man crews...you'll notice the bow guns with welded over armor plate and apparently, the TC loaded for the gunner and the traditional loader's position was eliminated (along with the bow MG gunner). All info signs noted 3-man crews. They bulked up the armor in front of the driver and in the turret front as well, in addition to other mods like smoke launchers and upgrading to turbo-diesels. (Opened the engine bay doors and took pics of this, too)

I'll be posting these over several days since I'm very busy on this end, but have good contacts for future visits of the historical research kind. Frankly, I've never been so well and professionally received at any museum other than the Patton museum. (Note of interest, there was a gift from Col. Clint Ancker in their collection from foreign armies...that guy sure got around! www.eaglehorse.org/4_f...ridan4.htm )

Their M31 has had the false guns removed, but you can see the old weld marks. Other than the ones at Tel-Aviv and one that was at the Patton Museum (is it still there?) anyone know of any others as complete as this one?

Anyway...to the pics...

My hosts...San Martin in the background...








Driverseat and panel to left...



Teasers for later... Mr. Green





A languid, soft-focus pic...



More to follow....

And a great many thanks to the staff of the museum for making my visit so enjoyable!
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toadmanstankpictures
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more

Hey Doug,
Did I tell you that you are my new best friend? Laughing Thanks for the great Sherman pics!

The ones with the plated over bow gunner position are converted Sherman Fireflies. That was part of the Firefly modification. The dismounted gun is indeed a 76.2mm 17lbr. The driver & bow gunner positions have the standard applique plates as well.

Looking forward to ALL of the Sherman pics!

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more

- toadmanstankpictures
Hey Doug,
Did I tell you that you are my new best friend? Laughing Thanks for the great Sherman pics!

The ones with the plated over bow gunner position are converted Sherman Fireflies. That was part of the Firefly modification. The dismounted gun is indeed a 76.2mm 17lbr. The driver & bow gunner positions have the standard applique plates as well.

Looking forward to ALL of the Sherman pics!


Did you notice that the hatches were open? That should have prompted an obvious question. The answer is "Yes, I did" Wink

Now...where would the S/N's have been on these vehicles? I want to know if they are in my pics or were ground/welded/ground off the rear.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:47 am
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and

A little detail of 09040 in the yard: (you can get larger views of these by viewing them in my gallery)



















Interior through-the-port views, left side:





Last edited by Doug_Kibbey on Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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TimRoyall
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:12 am
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and

Great photos. I seem to remember years ago that someone in Wheels and Tracks magazine said that Argentina had a number of Crusader Gun Tractors that had been used up until the 70/80s. Any sign of any of those rare beasts?

Tim,
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toadmanstankpictures
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:40 am
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more

- Doug_Kibbey

Now...where would the S/N's have been on these vehicles? I want to know if they are in my pics or were ground/welded/ground off the rear.


For the Sherman VC's(M4A4), the s/n's should be on the rear towing lugs. For the IC Hybrid(M4 Composite), I'm not too sure.

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Jens_O_Mehner
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:46 am
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more

Aaah,

so you stumbled upon the Sherman Repotenciados, which were rebuilt in the late 1970s, if memory serves. Be aware that during the rebuilding program the engine deck apparently was standardized to a common M4A4 standard, including the composites, and the muzzle brakes were changed as well, these are not the original 17 lbr- brakes.

For CIAs conversant in Espanol there's more here: Reponteciados. Cool

Cheers,

Jens O.

Moderator edit to add (So our Argentine friends don't misunderstand the reference....they have the URL to our group)

Agrego para nuestros amigos de Argentina que la "CIA" sea nuestro significado "curmudgeons de la broma del foro en armadura"("Curmudgeons In Armor"). el "curmudgeon" es un viejo hombre desagradable, en inglés
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:46 am
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more

- toadmanstankpictures
- Doug_Kibbey

Now...where would the S/N's have been on these vehicles? I want to know if they are in my pics or were ground/welded/ground off the rear.


For the Sherman VC's(M4A4), the s/n's should be on the rear towing lugs. For the IC Hybrid(M4 Composite), I'm not too sure.


I took a copy of the S/N guide, which doesn't specifically address this version, but I checked all tow hooks and didn't see any serial numbers through the paint (scraping was not an option). On the rear deck view in post above and in this close up, I thought I found two areas that looked like ones corresponding to ones on the S/N guide that looked like maybe numbers had been removed, but I'm not sure:



For CIAs conversant in Espanol there's more here: Reponteciados.
...and for CIA's that ain't, we have an online translator on menu bar at left. Mr. Green

Agrego para nuestros amigos de Argentina que la "CIA" sea nuestro significado "curmudgeons de la broma del foro en armadura" (Curmudgeons In Armor). el "curmudgeon" es un viejo hombre desagradable, en inglés

That one you have a link to, Jens, is also from this museum because it has the muzzle brake on sideways and the gun mount on the floor beside it...I recognize that vehicle...you will see it again in this thread. Wink


Last edited by Doug_Kibbey on Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:51 am; edited 2 times in total
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Jens_O_Mehner
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:05 am
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more

Smart guy,

how thoughtful of you to relate to our Argentine friends that we're the good CIA. Mr. Green

Never thought about the online translator, my kitchen Spanish served me well enough- and yes, I did realize that the loacation is the same... Cool

Now has that nice Mr Kibbey gone to the trouble of climbing up on the hulls? Smile
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:09 am
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more

- Jens_O_Mehner
Smart guy,

how thoughtful of you to relate to our Argentine friends that we're the good CIA. Mr. Green

Never thought about the online translator, my kitchen Spanish served me well enough- and yes, I did realize that the loacation is the same... Cool

Now has that nice Mr Kibbey gone to the trouble of climbing up on the hulls? Smile


I went to some length to stress that our interest is in historic vehicles only (for obvious reasons) and yes, I climbed on the hulls and into the open vehicles. Coronel Sanchez has our forum saved to "favorites" on his computer so keep in mind what we say is being viewed. I have interior shots (taken in complete darkness with flash, so I was working blind and from memory of where things are in a Sherman.. but it worked out pretty well. Opened the engine bay of one upgraded one, too. It's all coming in future installments).
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:39 am
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more

Hi Doug! Hi Folks!

- Doug_Kibbey

Opened the engine bay of one upgraded one, too. It's all coming in future installments).


Super job Doug! And super thanks to all the very nice folks who help out and who let you do your thing with the camera!

Any idea just what they did with the engine upgrade? I am guessing they did get rid of that original M-4A4 multi-banked engines and went to something that is a lot easier to maintain.

Fireflys! Most interesting!
Sgt, Scouts Out!

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General G.S. Patton Jr.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:46 am
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Doug! Hi Folks!

- Doug_Kibbey

Opened the engine bay of one upgraded one, too. It's all coming in future installments).


Super job Doug! And super thanks to all the very nice folks who help out and who let you do your thing with the camera!

Any idea just what they did with the engine upgrade? I am guessing they did get rid of that original M-4A4 multi-banked engines and went to something that is a lot easier to maintain.

Fireflys! Most interesting!
Sgt, Scouts Out!


For the gearheads...was gonna' do this later, but since it's come up...

And I bet the mechanics cursed the guy who thunk up the multibank engine everytime they opened the bay doors...

First, the engine upgrade. I first thought the long stovepipe was an aux heater pipe or something, but it's the main exhaust.







The multibank on a stand:





Carb routing...one per cyl. bank...two on one side, three on the other. Plumbers nightmare, eat your heart out, Vic Edelbrock...:



"Gee, I coulda' had a V8!"



Tranny. I'm trying to picture this with a Hurst Competition Plus White Ball shifter....



Last edited by Doug_Kibbey on Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:56 am; edited 2 times in total
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Jens_O_Mehner
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:54 am
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and

- Doug_Kibbey

I went to some length to stress that our interest is in historic vehicles only (for obvious reasons) and yes, I climbed on the hulls and into the open vehicles. Coronel Sanchez has our forum saved to "favorites" on his computer so keep in mind what we say is being viewed.


Si Senor Kibbey,

duly noted and a very warm muchas gracias to Coronel Sanchez and staff for their hospitality.

Many thanks to you as well, now next time you're on a fact-finding mission, make it look like hard work, so we won't be green with envy... Mr. Green
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:56 am
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and

- TimRoyall
Great photos. I seem to remember years ago that someone in Wheels and Tracks magazine said that Argentina had a number of Crusader Gun Tractors that had been used up until the 70/80s. Any sign of any of those rare beasts?

Tim,


Don't think so, but what'sit look like?
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binder001
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and

Doug, Thank you for sharing the photos.

That looks like a fist-rate military museum. Quite a Sherman collection they have! I have seen photos of that M31 recovery vehicle before. I think it is the most complete of its kind left in existence.

Gary
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