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Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

The Panzer IV no. 14 (UniqueID 169) on that page is the tank we're talking about:

preservedtanks.com/Typ...p;Select=1

I took the identification of 'Ausf H' from Wheels and Tracks magazine, where it's covered in issue 30. However I should not have taken it at face value as I can see clearly now it is an Ausf J. I will make a correction on the website and in future editions of the Preserved German Tanks book.

- Doug_Kibbey
Can you give an angle of the rear that your looking specifically for (and example would be helpful)? I have 2-3 eye level views from various angles, or do you need a "top down view" of rear deck? Might not have that, but maybe something close.


The 'standard' Pz IV look, e.g. for Ausf G, H, etc. is a large horizontal exhaust silencer (muffler) on the rear plate, with a smaller silencer to the left of it:



A distinctive feature of the Ausf J was that this was removed, see for example the Pz IV Ausf J at Saumur:

preservedtanks.com/Det...PhotoID=89

In very late production models, a completely new exhaust system was used with two vertical silencers (similar to the Panther or Tiger), see for example the Pz IV Ausf J at Latrun:

preservedtanks.com/Det...otoID=1176

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

FINALLY, page two...I can post pics again. Laughing

Here is the bit you're looking for. Obvious bracketry for the silencer, but the bit itself is no longer present (I notice that the example at Saumur you cited lacks these brackets). Rough area on hull behind bracketry suggest to me that one was mounted at one time, mufflers are notorious for rusting out and quickly becoming unpresentable, besides, why would brackets be mounted if there was no intention to use them if simplification in manufacture was the point) Should come as no surprise, lots of bits are missing (what, for example, went in the tank that the curvy pieces to right supported? Whole tank is gone).

Also, though mismatched, the turret lacked the rear pistol ports I've seen in some versions. Also, closer inspection of the interior main gun pics seem to me to be lacking in something where gun enters mantlet. What is it that ain't there? (the diameter is not filling the mantlet opening)



*Edit to add....

Here's a interesting finding from a previous trip. Begs the question, is the reference to hull, turret, or both? Were some J's produced with silencers?....And when did fighting in Moldavia end?



...and since it's referenced on the plate, here's the engine, with one cam cover thoughtfully missing so we can appreciate the gear-driven SOHC (presumably with a gear train somewhat simpler than a Ford 427 "cammer").



Last edited by Doug_Kibbey on Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:23 am; edited 2 times in total
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Now that we're in a thread with piccie rights again, what's the significance of the number on this housing? And why, apart from needing to put together bits-and-pieces, would the track have solid and hollow center guides?



...and just for the heck of it, I didn't see any signs of the TC's azimuthal indicator doo-hickey. Probably lost to the parts bin of history...or wherever the muffler went.

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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

I agree it looks like there's a bracket for the auxiliary engine silencer, however it's a different shape to the standard bracket, plus I don't see any connection/pipework going to it, which you can see for the missing main silencer next to it (it sat in the 'curvy pieces'). I'm still thinking it was an Ausf J without a silencer, and some other item has been stowed in its place.

For identification I haven't considered the turret at all, since we know it was added later. Regarding a gap around the gun going into the mantlet - could it just indicate the gun hasn't fully returned from the recoil position (i.e. it's jammed?). Regarding the hollow track centre guides my guess would be the same as reducing the number of return rollers - just another way of reducing the amount of metal required.

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BruceClark
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) Pz IV Ausf J update...

Hi,
I agree that this is a Late J hull- the extended hull sides for tow hooks and the 3 return rollers are the clues. The straps on the rear do look like they are intended for the auxilliary muffler but there is no port in the rear hull- this should be visible or plated over. It also has late cast idler and late lower tow hook though this latter may have been added post war.

The casting number on the final drive housing is just that- a casting number referenced in some drawing from long ago. The mixture of track types is fairly common in late war vehicles and especially museum exhibits- you use the track at hand to outfit the exhibit. The hollow guide horns are earlier than the solid, by the way. Not sure whether this was to simplify the manufacturing process- as it seems counter intuitive to use more metal later in the war- or whether there was an issue with the hollow guidehorns collecting mud, ice, snow, etc.

The turret is another issue indeed....

Hope that helps
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Good stuff, guys. It seems fighting in Moldavia was going on well into 1944, see: "Jassy–Kishinev Offensive (August 1944)"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...1Dec44.jpg

I'll try to get some more pics up later, including main gun/battery and coax/bow MG shrouds from inside. Might be original, but damaged from careless visitors pulling or standing on (museum visitors do some strange things to artifacts, sometimes). They had a bent and squirrely look to them, especially the bow gun (which is more vulnerable to abuse by visitors).
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BruceClark
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) Pz IV Ausf J update...

Doug and Trevor,

I went back to my photos of this vehicle taken prior to restoration.
( A buddy was a Nato military attache to former Warsaw pact countries and visited many of these former "off limits" collections.)

I have a clear shot of the rear plate showing some kind of container- oil? water?- held in place by those straps. Definitely not a muffler.

Now if I could only figure out how to post photos here...

BTW Will Phelps in "Panzer IV Survivors: A to J" lists this vehicle as a late J hull with a late H turret.

Cheers! Bruce
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) Pz IV Ausf J update...

- BruceClark
Doug and Trevor,

I went back to my photos of this vehicle taken prior to restoration.
( A buddy was a Nato military attache to former Warsaw pact countries and visited many of these former "off limits" collections.)

I have a clear shot of the rear plate showing some kind of container- oil? water?- held in place by those straps. Definitely not a muffler.

Now if I could only figure out how to post photos here...

BTW Will Phelps in "Panzer IV Survivors: A to J" lists this vehicle as a late J hull with a late H turret.

Cheers! Bruce


Bruce,
Thanks, that's helpful! The tank might have been removed or fallen off when, as I notice in some of my closeups, the bracket welds have broken away from the hull at right bottom (I think it was).

D.
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Yes - great picture, Bruce, that clears up any confusion.

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Here's the likely explanation for why the tank is no longer fitted (whatever it was for....it wasn't apparently deemed worthy of repair)

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:31 am
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Not sure if this might help, by Garry Redmon just updated his 'Armor for the Ages' website. It includes the recently relocated Panzer Mk IV, that is receiving some attention.

Armor for the Ages : Panzer IV Project

Don
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:02 am
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

- Dontos
Not sure if this might help, by Garry Redmon just updated his 'Armor for the Ages' website. It includes the recently relocated Panzer Mk IV, that is receiving some attention.

Armor for the Ages : Panzer IV Project

Don


Don,
Great pics, whether yours or Garry's. Not surprisingly, some aspects of the Bucharest vehicle are in better condition (forward drivers' and RO compartments, drive system up there)...the results of not having the weather exposure of the APG vehicle...and other aspects are just...incomplete (no turret basket, no internal stowage bins to speak of, etc.). APG vehicle is more original and complete, but exposure took it's toll. Interior of Bucharest vehicle was better protected (what there is of it), but is far less complete/original. White paint exceeds the rust, however.

Of course, you can't restore what ain't there, and that's probably not in the budget anyway. Between the old AFV Interiors file (may it remain forever in our hearts and hard drives), Garry's pics, and the Bucharest vehicle...I've gotten a new appreciation for what the inside is supposed to be like. I have to say that in many ways, it's easier to relate to later Patton-series vehicles in spatial use than U.S. vehicles of the same period (that is to say, more "modern" in scale and layout than the M4's). It's possible now to imagine what a "new" one should look like inside...and I haven't even seen the more pristine examples out there.

I was standing on the hull floor, however, and don't have any feel for what the fighting compartment height is like with turret basket under your feet.
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Jens_O_Mehner
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:50 am
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) Pz IV Ausf J update...

- BruceClark
... I have a clear shot of the rear plate showing some kind of container- oil? water?- held in place by those straps. Definitely not a muffler...


It is actually the muffler for the auxiliary engine which turned the turret and this makes it an early J at the latest, since the auxiliary engine was dropped during the J-production run.



Jens O.
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TrevorLarkum
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Jens - I think you need to reread the discussion, as we started with that idea but decided it wasn't the case. If you're aware of that, then we'd be interested in your reasoning.

Dontos, the FK Panzer IV has exactly the muffler where we would expect it since it is a much earlier vehicle:



A great set of pictures though!

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Dontos
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:12 am
Post subject: Re: Romanian (Bucharest) MkIV and Sherman update...

Here is better view from AFTA website



Don
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