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Panther in Thun, correct version?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:31 pm
Post subject: Panther in Thun, correct version?

I think we already figured out this tank can be either an ausf. D or
an early ausf. A. It could even be that hull and turrets were assembled from different wrecks.
This page show some pictures of the turret that aren't easily available, and could be handy. The guy managed to climb on the tank Laughing
scouseontoast.blogspot...rland.html

Looking at Panzer Tracts 5-2, page 5-75, turret front casting and plate interlocks should identify it as aus.f A.

Any opinion?

Massimo
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

Its actually an Ausf D2 and that particular example has a fake mantlet...

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

Yes, the fake mantlet is pretty much self-evident from the pictures. I also assumed it's a well know fact. But you are right, it's better to state it clearly.

Now, based on which features you identify it as D?
I was looking at Jentz's books because I assumed they are the most up to date on the topic, and Doyle's drawings are helpful. Are you looking at other references?

Again, considering the state of other panzers delivered to Switzerland from France together with the Panther (Stug III and Pz IV in Thun), we can't assume hull and turret originally belonged to the same vehicle. So, in my opinion, it could be useful to analyze them separately.

Thanks

Massimo
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:49 am
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

- Massimo_Foti

Now, based on which features you identify it as D?
Massimo


Conversation with the curator about three years ago and IIRC the cupola & back of turret.

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

Do the curator had access to things we can't see, like internal data plates or the like?

Massimo
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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

According the following site it is an D or A hull with an A type turret

www.panther1944.de/Pan...ten_en.htm

Michel

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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

- Michel_Krauss
According the following site it is an D or A hull with an A type turret

www.panther1944.de/Pan...ten_en.htm

Michel


the webmaster took the comment that I put in the Panthers PDF file that can be found on my website Wink

P-O

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:04 am
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

the webmaster took the comment that I put in the Panthers PDF file that can be found on my website


your past is haunting you Wink

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clausb
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

- JimWeb
Its actually an Ausf D2 and that particular example has a fake mantlet...


Well.... an Ausf. D2 is the same as an Ausf. D, the D1/D2 distinction being used only briefly as the earliest Panthers produced had their steering drive changed from a clutch-brake system to a geared system. Smile

As the Ausf. A was simply an Ausf. D with a new turret, the only means of identifying it as one or the other would be the hull serial number.

The turret is clearly an Ausf. A turret, but since there are no pistol ports in the side turret armour, it would suggest that the turret was made in December 1943 or later. The fact that there is a pistol port in the rear turret armour would suggest that the turret is a very early Ausf. A turret, built from plates made just around the time that the pistol ports were omitted.
Since the tank does not have a hole in the roof for a Nahverteidigungswaffe, it was probably made before March 1944.

If you look at the hull, it obviously has the forward-looking periscope for the hull-gunner but no ballmount for the hull-MG. This probably means that the hull was made mid-december 1943 or earlier. The left exhaust is the single-pipe typewhich went out of production in January 1944, which is consistent with a later 1943 production date.

The roadwheels all appear to be the 24-bolt type introduced in August 1943 and for what it is worth, the tires are marked 8-43, which could mean a production date in August 1943.

While nothing conclusive can be said about this, it appears that the turret and hull (including the wheels) are produced in the same interval of 4 months in 1943 (September-December 1943) which saw the production of 37 Ausf. D and 863 Ausf. A. It seems to likely to me, that turret and hull belongs together. If not, then the museum or a German repair shop should at some point in time have had exactly these parts (August 1943 roadwheels, late-1943 turret and a pre-december 1943 hull) available at the same time and matched them to this almost perfect early Ausf. A configuration. Not very likely, but of course possible.

cbo
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

The more I look at images of this vehicle the more I am convinced its a mix'n'match whether during Wehrmacht service or after is open to debate I suspect....

I'll have to try to fit in another visit I suspect!

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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

what if the hull plate and Fahrgestell number are unreadable?

P-O

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clausb
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Panther in Thun, correct version?

- the_shadock
what if the hull plate and Fahrgestell number are unreadable?

P-O


Then we can keep debating this until the end of time Wink

cbo
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