±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 555
Total: 555
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Member Screenshots
03: Community Forums
04: Member Screenshots
05: Downloads
06: Photo Gallery
07: Photo Gallery
08: Community Forums
09: Member Screenshots
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Home
13: Community Forums
14: Photo Gallery
15: Photo Gallery
16: Downloads
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Home
21: News
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Your Account
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Home
28: Community Forums
29: Photo Gallery
30: Community Forums
31: Photo Gallery
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Member Screenshots
35: Community Forums
36: Home
37: Home
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Photo Gallery
42: Your Account
43: Community Forums
44: Photo Gallery
45: Community Forums
46: News Archive
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Downloads
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Downloads
53: Community Forums
54: Photo Gallery
55: News Archive
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Home
61: Member Screenshots
62: Home
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Photo Gallery
66: Community Forums
67: Member Screenshots
68: Photo Gallery
69: Member Screenshots
70: Member Screenshots
71: Community Forums
72: Photo Gallery
73: Home
74: Member Screenshots
75: Community Forums
76: Home
77: Community Forums
78: Member Screenshots
79: Home
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Member Screenshots
83: Home
84: Member Screenshots
85: Home
86: Community Forums
87: Photo Gallery
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: LinkToUs
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Photo Gallery
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Home
103: Member Screenshots
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: Photo Gallery
107: Home
108: Home
109: Photo Gallery
110: Home
111: Home
112: News
113: Community Forums
114: Home
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Home
119: Member Screenshots
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Member Screenshots
123: News
124: Community Forums
125: Home
126: Community Forums
127: Photo Gallery
128: Community Forums
129: Photo Gallery
130: Home
131: Home
132: Photo Gallery
133: Photo Gallery
134: Photo Gallery
135: Home
136: Community Forums
137: Member Screenshots
138: Home
139: Downloads
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Member Screenshots
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Home
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: News Archive
152: Photo Gallery
153: Home
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Home
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Member Screenshots
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Home
163: Member Screenshots
164: Photo Gallery
165: Member Screenshots
166: Home
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Photo Gallery
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Downloads
174: Home
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Home
181: Home
182: Home
183: Community Forums
184: Photo Gallery
185: Member Screenshots
186: Home
187: Community Forums
188: Member Screenshots
189: News Archive
190: Photo Gallery
191: Community Forums
192: Member Screenshots
193: Community Forums
194: Downloads
195: Home
196: Downloads
197: Community Forums
198: Photo Gallery
199: Member Screenshots
200: Community Forums
201: Photo Gallery
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Photo Gallery
208: Home
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Photo Gallery
213: Home
214: Home
215: Community Forums
216: Home
217: Home
218: Community Forums
219: Member Screenshots
220: Home
221: News Archive
222: Home
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: News Archive
228: Contact
229: Community Forums
230: Home
231: Member Screenshots
232: News Archive
233: Home
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Member Screenshots
237: Community Forums
238: Member Screenshots
239: Home
240: Photo Gallery
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Photo Gallery
247: Photo Gallery
248: Home
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Downloads
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Downloads
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Member Screenshots
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Home
261: Home
262: Community Forums
263: Home
264: Member Screenshots
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Home
268: Home
269: Home
270: Photo Gallery
271: Home
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Member Screenshots
275: Photo Gallery
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: News Archive
281: Community Forums
282: Home
283: Community Forums
284: Home
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Home
288: Photo Gallery
289: Community Forums
290: Downloads
291: Photo Gallery
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Home
296: Photo Gallery
297: News Archive
298: Community Forums
299: Home
300: Community Forums
301: Home
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Home
305: Community Forums
306: Home
307: Photo Gallery
308: Community Forums
309: Photo Gallery
310: Community Forums
311: Home
312: Community Forums
313: News
314: Home
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Photo Gallery
320: Home
321: Home
322: Community Forums
323: Home
324: Home
325: Community Forums
326: Home
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Home
332: Home
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Home
337: Community Forums
338: Photo Gallery
339: Photo Gallery
340: Home
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Photo Gallery
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Member Screenshots
347: Photo Gallery
348: Photo Gallery
349: Community Forums
350: Member Screenshots
351: Home
352: Downloads
353: Downloads
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Home
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: News Archive
361: Home
362: Downloads
363: Community Forums
364: Downloads
365: Photo Gallery
366: Community Forums
367: Home
368: Photo Gallery
369: Home
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Member Screenshots
375: Community Forums
376: LinkToUs
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Photo Gallery
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: News Archive
384: Photo Gallery
385: Home
386: Photo Gallery
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Home
391: Home
392: Downloads
393: News
394: Member Screenshots
395: Downloads
396: Photo Gallery
397: Community Forums
398: Photo Gallery
399: Member Screenshots
400: Downloads
401: Community Forums
402: Member Screenshots
403: Member Screenshots
404: Community Forums
405: Home
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Photo Gallery
409: Home
410: Community Forums
411: Home
412: Home
413: News
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Photo Gallery
417: Home
418: Community Forums
419: News Archive
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Photo Gallery
423: Photo Gallery
424: Photo Gallery
425: Community Forums
426: Downloads
427: Member Screenshots
428: Photo Gallery
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Home
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: News
441: Member Screenshots
442: Community Forums
443: Member Screenshots
444: Member Screenshots
445: Community Forums
446: Member Screenshots
447: Photo Gallery
448: Community Forums
449: Photo Gallery
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Home
455: Community Forums
456: Home
457: Community Forums
458: Photo Gallery
459: Community Forums
460: Downloads
461: Member Screenshots
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Home
466: Community Forums
467: Home
468: Photo Gallery
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Home
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Home
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Photo Gallery
485: Home
486: Home
487: Home
488: Home
489: Member Screenshots
490: Downloads
491: Downloads
492: Home
493: Home
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Member Screenshots
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: News Archive
503: Community Forums
504: Home
505: Home
506: Home
507: Community Forums
508: Home
509: Home
510: Contact
511: Community Forums
512: Photo Gallery
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Home
516: Home
517: Member Screenshots
518: Photo Gallery
519: Home
520: Home
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Home
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Photo Gallery
527: Member Screenshots
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Home
531: Community Forums
532: Home
533: Home
534: News Archive
535: Home
536: Photo Gallery
537: Home
538: Community Forums
539: Member Screenshots
540: Photo Gallery
541: Photo Gallery
542: Photo Gallery
543: Community Forums
544: Photo Gallery
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Photo Gallery
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Member Screenshots
551: Member Screenshots
552: Photo Gallery
553: Home
554: News
555: Photo Gallery

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Training Tank Only
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Shadow_Bshwackr
Janitor

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 7019
Location: Central Illinois, USA
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

Nice pics fellas...
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Chris_C
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 214
Location: WV, USA
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:27 am
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

- bsmart
Here is a picture of the Weirton T95. Cast in the lower front hull is a Ser No 5 so I think your ID is confirmed
I grew up about 45 minutes south of Weirton, so it was nice seeing this vehicle being discussed. I have some more photos I could scan if anyone wants them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:30 am
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

Neil is as 'GAA - GAA' on the MBT 70 / XM803 as I am on the Ontos.

Nice one Neil

Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:34 am
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

- Dontos
Neil is as 'GAA - GAA' on the MBT 70 / XM803 as I am on the Ontos.

Nice one Neil

Don


Yeah, oddities - ie prototypes, pilots, etc is kinda my thing. Probably started after I saw the T30 at Fort Jackson when I was in school at USC and couldnt find anything on it in the references I had - and this multiplied many-fold when I visited Aberdeen Proving Ground of course. For a lot of these vehicles, little to no info exists on them on the web, although I have since been able to find good book sources.

But even Hunnicutt isnt a good source for info on individual pilots & prototypes of a particular model. I've been able to piece together the MBT-70 puzzle over the last year or so in large part due to this board. Much of the T95 family puzzle remains a mystery - conflicting numbers in sources, discrepencies between hull numbers & pilot numbers, etc.

My long-talked-about-but-never-gotten-around-to goal is an website that would focus initially on US prototypes & pilots. From visits to APG & Knox, I now have a pretty good archive. Further updates would include more common US armor as well as British, French & Canadian (from to visits to Bovington, Saumur & Ottawa). I literally have GBs worth of armor pics...

Someday... Unfortunately work & grad school kinda get in the way...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Chris_C
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 214
Location: WV, USA
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:09 am
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

- binder001
For the M60s - I remember hearing about some of these with the welded "Training Only" or "Non-ballistic". I was also told once that these were ex-prototype vehicles, the mild steel was used as it was easier to work on than hardened armor.
I should have added this to my post about the T95, sorry...

On some areas of the hulls of the four pilot M60s and fifteen production tanks, the armor was thinned down to reduce weight. It was then determined that these areas were not sufficiently protected, so these vehicles were given to the Armor School as training tanks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

I'll make a sot at the 'generations

The M3 had a smaller cousin (The M6?) that was a 37mm mounted on a 1 1/2 ton truck chassis. It was quickly decided that anything that light was no longer an AT weapon. I think some were used in the Pacific for bunker busting

There was also a 57mm variation of the M3 that may have been foisted off on the British

The full track TDs started with the M10 which morphed into the M36

The hotrodders got into the act with the M18 causing some M10 units to be reequiped with the M18 and some with the more powerful but slower M36. ( The M10s were converted to gun tractors for Heavy Artillery or used to convert towed TD units to SP units). The Brits converted some M10s to Aichelles by replacing the 3" with a 17 pdr.

Also I think the M12 GMC had great potential as an AT weapon but technically it was an SP field gun so it probably doesn't count in the lineage (but it could sure surprise a German Cat :-))

After WWII the term Tank Destroyer (and the Branch) disappeared. The only folks (In the Army) interested in an Antitank vehicle smaller than a tank were the Airborne folks who saw the potential of tbeing speed bumps to the Russian and Chinese Hordes

The Ontos and the M-56 SPAT/Scorpion selfpropelled 90mm were the outcome of that. I've always assumed there was some interest in the Ontos by the Army but that it lost out to a more conventional M-56, but I may be wrong.

Anyway the advent of the ATGM ended the 'need' for a light AT platform and various vehicle and manpacked ATGMs have taken over.

Since I did this all 'off the cuff ' with no use of reference materials I'm sure I missed some but it should get the ball rolling.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
David_Reasoner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 127
Location: South Central Kentucky
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

The biggest users of the 57mm on M3 halftrack (T48 GMC IIRC) were the Red Army. Although originally produced for the British, the Brits passed them directly to the Soviets, who organized them into SP antitank regiments.

The M6 GMC was the 37mm gun on Dodge 3/4 ton weapons carrier chassis. They saw very brief service in Tunisia, with some of the guns later being remounted on M2 halftracks.

Prewar US tank destroyer doctrine called for the TD units to be a very mobile (corps level) reserve intended to quickly backstop an armored breakthrough of the front. The M6 and M18 gun motor carriages were the epitome of this concept of speed and mobility to allow the units to be rapidly deployed where they were needed. Kind of a "fire brigade" approach to antitank defense.

David
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

<DING, DING, DING, DING>

Bob

Awesome! You nailed it.

(I had actually forgotten about the 37mm on the truck, so....)

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

I figured either the 37mm or the 57mm were the 'Gotchas' in the Family tree. I'm probably the only one who thinks about using a 155mm SP gun as an AT weapon Smile I have seen reports about them being used as direct fire AT guns. I know there was an AP round made for the 155, it was actually called 'Semi Armor Piercing' since it was meant for coast defence use and in Naval terms didn't rate a full armor piercing designation, but the reports I've seen didn't mention the ammo used. Since the M12s were also used as direct fire weapons against the West Wall defences there might have been AP rounds available. Do you think the 155L60 gun would have any problem with a Panther or a Tiger Smile

By the way Don was the Ontos considered for the Airborne AT role that the M56 had? I figure you probably know if anyone does

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
David_Reasoner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 127
Location: South Central Kentucky
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

Bob, I believe the 155mm used on the M12 was actually the older M1917 155L45. The newer "Long Tom" was used on it's successor, the M40 GMC. Either way, I would not want to be on the wrong end, AP or SAP ( or HE for that matter) Even if it doesn't penetrate, a hundred pound shell arriving at well over 2000fps is bound to make an impression. The M12 was also used in a point-blank direct fire role against the old French forts at Metz.

David
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

On about the forth posting, page 1 of this long thread, there is a picture of an M60 tank, (full shot). I noticed that the road wheels are ribbed looking. I dont believe I've seen this before on a modern tank, aren't they all usually smooth dished. It caught my eye because being on a wash rack with a fire hose cleaning these would make alot of back spray when it hits those ribs, pain in the butt to clean. Experimental?

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Chris_C
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 214
Location: WV, USA
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

No, they were aluminum wheels used to save weight (65 lb per wheel). They needed steel backing plates to protect them from the track guides. They were dropped in May 1980 in favor of steel wheels again, since the aluminum wheels were more expensive.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

- David_Reasoner
Bob, I believe the 155mm used on the M12 was actually the older M1917 155L45. The newer "Long Tom" was used on it's successor, the M40 GMC. Either way, I would not want to be on the wrong end, AP or SAP ( or HE for that matter) Even if it doesn't penetrate, a hundred pound shell arriving at well over 2000fps is bound to make an impression. The M12 was also used in a point-blank direct fire role against the old French forts at Metz.

David


Took me a while to find, but here are penetration stats for the M1918 155mm (also carried on the M12). I have included 76mm and 17 pdr stats for comparison. Interestingly, the 155 has better penetration than the 76 - but not the 17 pounder! Although there is more than penetration. Even if you're not penetrated, you could be rendered inoperable due to sheer impact force (ie everything breaks inside & outside).

"Sherman, A History of the American Medium Tank", R. P. Hunnicutt, Presidio Press, 1978, pages 559-570. Ranges in yards; armour type (FH = Face-hardened, H = Homogenous) as shown at 30º.

Weapon Ammo Type 600 yds 1000 yds
76mm APC M62 H 93 88
M1918 M112B1 FH 109 102
M1918 AP H 127 119
17 pdr APCBC H 140 130
17 pdr APSV/DS H 208 192

No stats given for the M1918 penetration at 1600 & 2000 yds.

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 4 of 4
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum