±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 628
Total: 628
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Home
03: Home
04: Photo Gallery
05: Downloads
06: Downloads
07: Home
08: Photo Gallery
09: Statistics
10: Photo Gallery
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Home
15: Home
16: Home
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Photo Gallery
20: Member Screenshots
21: Member Screenshots
22: News Archive
23: Downloads
24: Member Screenshots
25: Downloads
26: Photo Gallery
27: Member Screenshots
28: Home
29: Home
30: Photo Gallery
31: Statistics
32: Downloads
33: Home
34: Home
35: Community Forums
36: Home
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Home
40: Home
41: Community Forums
42: News Archive
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Supporters
46: News
47: Photo Gallery
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Downloads
52: Community Forums
53: Home
54: Downloads
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Member Screenshots
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Home
62: Home
63: Home
64: Home
65: Home
66: Home
67: Home
68: Home
69: Home
70: Photo Gallery
71: Community Forums
72: Home
73: Community Forums
74: Home
75: Home
76: Tell a Friend
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Member Screenshots
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Photo Gallery
84: Home
85: Home
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Home
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Home
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Statistics
100: Photo Gallery
101: Community Forums
102: Downloads
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Home
107: Home
108: Photo Gallery
109: Photo Gallery
110: Community Forums
111: Photo Gallery
112: Community Forums
113: Member Screenshots
114: Community Forums
115: Member Screenshots
116: Photo Gallery
117: Community Forums
118: Member Screenshots
119: Home
120: News Archive
121: Photo Gallery
122: Home
123: Member Screenshots
124: Photo Gallery
125: Statistics
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Downloads
129: Community Forums
130: Photo Gallery
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Downloads
136: Community Forums
137: Photo Gallery
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Photo Gallery
141: Downloads
142: Member Screenshots
143: Member Screenshots
144: Home
145: Photo Gallery
146: Photo Gallery
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Photo Gallery
155: Community Forums
156: Home
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Photo Gallery
162: Community Forums
163: Home
164: Statistics
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Member Screenshots
168: Home
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Home
172: Photo Gallery
173: Community Forums
174: Home
175: Photo Gallery
176: Member Screenshots
177: Home
178: Community Forums
179: Member Screenshots
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Supporters
185: Home
186: News
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Home
190: Home
191: Home
192: Home
193: Home
194: Statistics
195: Photo Gallery
196: Home
197: Treasury
198: Contact
199: Member Screenshots
200: Community Forums
201: Photo Gallery
202: Community Forums
203: Home
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: News
208: Home
209: Downloads
210: Photo Gallery
211: Community Forums
212: Photo Gallery
213: Home
214: Home
215: Home
216: Home
217: Member Screenshots
218: Home
219: Home
220: Home
221: Home
222: Home
223: Community Forums
224: Downloads
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Home
228: Member Screenshots
229: Photo Gallery
230: Home
231: Member Screenshots
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Home
235: Home
236: Downloads
237: Home
238: Community Forums
239: Downloads
240: Home
241: Home
242: Community Forums
243: Downloads
244: Home
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Photo Gallery
250: News Archive
251: Photo Gallery
252: Member Screenshots
253: Home
254: Photo Gallery
255: Photo Gallery
256: Community Forums
257: Home
258: Photo Gallery
259: Home
260: Home
261: Member Screenshots
262: Member Screenshots
263: Member Screenshots
264: Home
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Home
268: Member Screenshots
269: Photo Gallery
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Home
274: Downloads
275: Home
276: Community Forums
277: Home
278: Community Forums
279: News
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: News Archive
283: Community Forums
284: Photo Gallery
285: Community Forums
286: Home
287: Community Forums
288: Member Screenshots
289: Photo Gallery
290: Home
291: Home
292: Community Forums
293: Photo Gallery
294: Home
295: Photo Gallery
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Photo Gallery
300: Home
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Home
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Home
311: Community Forums
312: Photo Gallery
313: Community Forums
314: Member Screenshots
315: Community Forums
316: Home
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Home
320: Community Forums
321: Home
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Home
325: News
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Home
333: Community Forums
334: Photo Gallery
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Home
339: Home
340: Member Screenshots
341: Home
342: Photo Gallery
343: Community Forums
344: Photo Gallery
345: Home
346: Home
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Photo Gallery
352: Community Forums
353: Photo Gallery
354: Home
355: Community Forums
356: Photo Gallery
357: Home
358: Photo Gallery
359: Community Forums
360: Downloads
361: Community Forums
362: News
363: Member Screenshots
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Home
370: Home
371: Photo Gallery
372: Community Forums
373: Home
374: Photo Gallery
375: Home
376: Community Forums
377: Home
378: Downloads
379: Member Screenshots
380: Member Screenshots
381: Community Forums
382: Home
383: Downloads
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Your Account
388: Community Forums
389: Member Screenshots
390: Home
391: Member Screenshots
392: Community Forums
393: Photo Gallery
394: Member Screenshots
395: Photo Gallery
396: Home
397: Statistics
398: Member Screenshots
399: Home
400: Photo Gallery
401: Community Forums
402: Home
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Photo Gallery
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Member Screenshots
411: Home
412: Photo Gallery
413: Photo Gallery
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Home
417: Community Forums
418: Member Screenshots
419: Community Forums
420: Photo Gallery
421: Community Forums
422: Member Screenshots
423: Community Forums
424: Member Screenshots
425: Community Forums
426: Home
427: News
428: Home
429: Photo Gallery
430: Member Screenshots
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Photo Gallery
435: Community Forums
436: Member Screenshots
437: Home
438: Community Forums
439: Downloads
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Home
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Home
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Home
451: Home
452: Home
453: Home
454: Home
455: Home
456: Home
457: Community Forums
458: Photo Gallery
459: Home
460: Home
461: Home
462: Photo Gallery
463: Home
464: Member Screenshots
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Home
468: Photo Gallery
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Home
474: Community Forums
475: Home
476: Home
477: Home
478: Photo Gallery
479: Home
480: Member Screenshots
481: Community Forums
482: Photo Gallery
483: Community Forums
484: Photo Gallery
485: Home
486: Home
487: Home
488: Community Forums
489: Home
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Home
495: Community Forums
496: Member Screenshots
497: Home
498: Community Forums
499: Member Screenshots
500: Home
501: Downloads
502: Community Forums
503: Downloads
504: Member Screenshots
505: Home
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Downloads
509: Community Forums
510: Downloads
511: Home
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Downloads
517: Downloads
518: News
519: Your Account
520: Photo Gallery
521: Community Forums
522: Member Screenshots
523: Home
524: Home
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Member Screenshots
528: Photo Gallery
529: Home
530: Photo Gallery
531: Community Forums
532: Downloads
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Downloads
536: Home
537: Home
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: News Archive
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Home
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Home
547: Home
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Downloads
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Photo Gallery
556: Community Forums
557: Photo Gallery
558: Photo Gallery
559: Community Forums
560: Downloads
561: Member Screenshots
562: Community Forums
563: Member Screenshots
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: News Archive
569: Home
570: Home
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Home
574: Community Forums
575: News
576: Home
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Photo Gallery
582: Home
583: Community Forums
584: Home
585: Home
586: Member Screenshots
587: Community Forums
588: Downloads
589: Community Forums
590: Home
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Home
594: Home
595: Downloads
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Community Forums
599: Home
600: Home
601: Member Screenshots
602: Home
603: Community Forums
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Photo Gallery
607: Community Forums
608: Photo Gallery
609: Community Forums
610: Home
611: Home
612: Home
613: Community Forums
614: Member Screenshots
615: Community Forums
616: Downloads
617: Home
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Home
621: Home
622: Home
623: Home
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Tiger I – pathetic reliability?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
lehr
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:16 pm
Post subject: Tiger I – pathetic reliability?

This was posted on a forum on BoardGameGeek (I have the quote below so you do not have to use the link - for some reason BGG web pages can take a long time to download).

Geek List: wargames worth pre-ordering

The game’s designer gives some history of one of the units:

BTW, a little history of that counter....

That counter is schwere Panzer-Kompanie Hummel (K.St.N. 1176(f.g)) and was equipped with 14 PzKpfw VI Tiger Is...

It was formed in July 1944 at the Pz.Ers.Abt.500 in Paderborn, Germany as an "Alarmeinheit". After recovering from wounds in Italy, Hauptmann Hans Hummel was placed in command. Hummel selected his subcommanders available at PzErsAbt 500 from the officers present he knew from fighting in Italy with Pz.Abt 504.

His unit was alerted at around 12:30am on September 18th and was ordered to report to the Arnhem area. The unit arrived at Bocholt station on the morning of the 19th.

With the rail line blocked from allied air interdiction and other traffic proceeding in both directions, and with no tank transporters available, Hummel was ordered to proceed the 80 kms with the Tigers under their own power.

Tigers, as many of you might know, are not the most reliable of tanks under heavy use and all but 2 broke down during the trip. The two lucky tanks to make the trip without braking down were commanded by Leutnant Knaack and Feldwebel Barneki. They arrived around nightfall of the 19th at the Arnhem bridge perimeter.

The entire unit was not fully formed until the 24th - sans 3 Tigers.


Only 2 out of 14 Tiger Is (14%) made the 80km (50 mile) trip without breakdown. Compared with many other theaters of WWII, Holland in September does not seem like it would have the most demanding terrain or weather.

Is this reliability typical of Tiger Is?

What about other WWII tanks?

If 14 Shermans set out on the same trip how many would make it without breaking down?

What about 14 T-34s?

What about 14 AFVs with which you have personal experience (including post WWII)?

I am sure a lot depends on the condition of the tanks at the start of the trip, but the above performance just seems really bad. It seems like reliability like this would greatly reduce the effectiveness of an AFV especially on the offensive.

Any comments, knowledge and experience greatly appreciated.
Back to top
View user's profile
Sabot
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Kentucky
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiger I – pathetic reliability?

The Tiger got a bad reputation (mechanically) at Kursk because they were deployed without first working all of the bugs out of them. Additionally, in wintery muddy weather, the mud would freeze between the road wheels overnight and immobilize the tank.

It also suffered from poor fuel consumption. I do not know the range of the tank off hand, but I believe it was less than 100 miles.

The Sherman was a mechanically sound vehicle and a 50 mile trip would have been easy to accomplish. The Sherman came with about four different engine types and fuel efficiency and reliability depended on which engine was being used.

_________________
RobG
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address
PattonCurator
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiger I – pathetic reliability?

Agree about the Shermans - very reliable - probably 13 of the 14 would make the 50 mile trip (and the 14th would probably make it late after the crew repaired it. The T34 also has the same rugged reliability.

Charles
Back to top
View user's profile
Dubliner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiger I – pathetic reliability?

nt


Last edited by Dubliner on Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiger I – pathetic reliability?

- lehr
Only 2 out of 14 Tiger Is (14%) made the 80km (50 mile) trip without breakdown. Compared with many other theaters of WWII, Holland in September does not seem like it would have the most demanding terrain or weather.

Is this reliability typical of Tiger Is?


The Tiger was a heavy and fairly complicated vehicle which needed a lot of maintenance to operate properly. IIRC the operation manuals for the Tiger states that the crew has to check a number of things on the vehicle for every 15km of road march and fix any problems encountered. So you need crews that know their mount, you need conditions that allows the crew to take care of the vehicle and of course you need spares and maintenance units to fix any problems that occur during the roadmarch. Once you start removing some of those prerequisites for keeping your Tiger happy, chances are there will be trouble.

Tigers of s.SS-PzAbt 101 travelled about 300 kilometers on the road from Northern France to Normandy in June 1944, starting out with 45 tanks on June 7th and was down to 17 operational Tigers on June 12th. Most of the reminder had broken down along the road. It is evident that once tanks start to brake down along a 300 kilometer journey, it is impossible for the maintenance company to help everyone and things will start to fall apart. I has to be said that this battalion did come under allied air attack as well, which clearly didn't help the situation any. AFAIK no Tigers were lossed to allied airpower until June 13th.
A major problem for s.SS-PzAbt 101 was that their new Tiges used the steel-rimmed wheels which were very hard on the tracks, particularily the tracks pins, when travelling on hard surfaces.

IIRC Kompanie Hummel took over their Tigers from Pz.Ers.u.Ausb.Abt 500, a training formation, so they might have been well used vehicles to begin with.

- lehr
What about other WWII tanks?

If 14 Shermans set out on the same trip how many would make it without breaking down?

What about 14 T-34s?


WWII tanks were generally fragile beasts compared with modern equipment, but neither the Sherman nor the T-34 were as heavy and complex as the Tiger I. They would probably suffer a lot less from the strains of a long roadmarch and the Sherman in particular would benefit from its rubber rimmed wheels and rubber-bushed track pins.

That said, T-34s were not really known for their production quality or reliability, at least through parts of the war, so my money would be on the Sherman as the more reliable, everything else being equal.

- lehr
I am sure a lot depends on the condition of the tanks at the start of the trip, but the above performance just seems really bad. It seems like reliability like this would greatly reduce the effectiveness of an AFV especially on the offensive.


Indeed. But I think we have to keep in mind the day and age of these machines. In WWI, you could start with 400 tanks and in a couple of days you would have very few left in operational condition, the rest being mostly broken down or stuck rather than destroyed. That lesson was carried over to WWII which is why early war German armoured divisions had up to 350 tanks. That way they could afford to have half of them out of order and still pack a punch. That was clearly demonstrated during the Battle for France when a division could drop to 50% of its strength in a few days of operation and then raise the figure to 80% after a day or two of maintenance and repair.

My 2 ørers worth anyway

Claus B

PS: Sabot, the Tiger was first employed around Leningrad in November 1942, I think you are confusing it with the Panther, which had some serious issues during its combat debut at Kursk in 1943 (and several months after that as well, but that's a different issue).
Back to top
View user's profile
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiger I – pathetic reliability?

I rather wonder if it was less a problem with the Tigers and more a problem with German maintenance units. You hear about American tank maintenance units doing heroic work all night long in order to get the tanks back up and running in the morning. Now that i recall, the book "Deathtraps" had some especially nasty things to say about the original Sherman radial engine. In that book I recall he broke-down what proportion of men in a Tank Battalion were involved in vehicle maintenance, and it was a grotesquely large number. By '44 Germany probably couldn't afford the manpower for an effective maintenance section.
Back to top
View user's profile
J.McGillivray
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 149

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiger I – pathetic reliability?

The following is from “German Tanks of World War II� by Dr. S. Hart and Dr. R. Hart.(p.123-124)

“One engagement, during the 1944 Allied campaign in Italy, highlights the difficulties the Germans faced thanks to the poor cross-country performance, mechanical unreliability and the sheer physical bulk of the Tiger I tank. Between 23 and 25 May 1944, the 16Tigers of the 3rd Company, 506th Heavy Tank Battalion fought a costly engagement around Cori. On 23 May, the company advanced across a railway embankment and engaged Allied armour, but during the crossing three Tigers were disabled, two with track problems and one with gearbox failure. The Tiger's 2.02m (6ft Sin) barrel-overhang also proved a problem, as two other Tiger tanks accidentally jammed their guns into the soil as they came down the steep-sided embankment and had to be towed clear. Eventually 13 Tigers continued the advance during which they knocked out six Sherman tanks. During this attack, however, Allied artillery damaged another Tiger which withdrew back to a German workshop. The next day Allied anti-tank fire disabled another Tiger which was blown up by its crew.

“The company was then ordered to withdraw. While five Tigers held back an Allied attack, the remaining six tanks tried to tow away the three disabled Tigers by the embankment. However, the strain caused four of the six towing Tigers to break down. The Germans then had to destroy the three disabled tanks by the embankment and use the remaining two Tigers to tow back the four that had broken down. By the time the company had withdrawn to Cori, two of its five rearguard tanks had been disabled (one by Allied fire and the other because of a gearbox fault) while one of the two towing tanks had also broken down. Hence, while the three operational rearguard Tigers continued to block the Allied advance, back at Cori the company commander could deploy just one working Tiger and six disabled ones. With the rearguard now unable to stop the Allied advance into Cori, and with recovery vehicles unable to reach the company in time, the commander ordered the destruction of the six disabled Tigers to prevent them falling into Allied hands, while his remaining four tanks withdrew north. The company had lost 12 Tigers, but only three had been disabled by Allied fire. Clearly, the Tiger's mechanical unreliability was more of a threat than Allied fire.�
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiger I – pathetic reliability?

As a career Tanker, I can only imagine the utter frustration of the crews. Knowing that they man such a powerful vehicle, but having to 'scuttle' them due to mechanical unreliability.

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiger I – pathetic reliability?

- J.McGillivray
The following is from “German Tanks of World War II� by Dr. S. Hart and Dr. R. Hart.(p.123-124)

“One engagement, during the 1944 Allied campaign in Italy, highlights the difficulties the Germans faced thanks to the poor cross-country performance, mechanical unreliability and the sheer physical bulk of the Tiger I tank. Between 23 and 25 May 1944, the 16Tigers of the 3rd Company, 506th Heavy Tank Battalion fought a costly engagement around Cori.


In all fairness, this particular example is one of the worst performances of a Tiger unit and hardly typical. The unit was 3. Kompanie s.PzAbt 508 and there are at least two different accounts of what happened.

The company was caught in the middle of a major allied advance and apparently had no backup from the battalion maintenance company which had the heavy recovery vehicles. In the end, tanks with even minor damage, combat or mechanical, had to blown up or left to the enemy as the allies were advancing past the damaged vehicles. In such situations, armour losses are always high, regardless of type.

If you look at the incident, you start with three tanks breaking down on May 23rd. Two threw their tracks, which was not, to my knowledge, a common complaint with the Tiger, so it should probably not be put down to unreliability but rather accident (bad maintenance, bad driving, bad terriain or bad luck). One had transmission trouble, which is more like the kind of fault you would ascribe to mechanical deficiencies.

Then they try to recover the three broken down tanks by towing them after six other Tigers. AFAIK this procedure was actually forbidden unless there was imminent danger of the damaged tank falling into enemy hands. Tigers were not designed for such work, they had enough trouble shifting their own weight around.
Here the stories start to differ. In the Hart & Hart account, four of the towing tanks brakes down with transmission damage and one additional tank brakes down towing while two Tigers are trying to tow four other Tigers - a somewhat dubious claim, I think! In any case, this means that five Tigers broke down with transmission damage from towing.
In the report quoted by Jentz, four tanks of the six towing brakes down and then gets towed in turn by four other Tigers. These four Tigers make it, but later two of them brakes down transmission damage as well and it is tempting to assume that this had to do with the fact that they had been acting as recovery vehicles for most of the day. Another one of these four also brakes down later in the day with unspecified "technical problems".

Hart & Hart mentions another, non-towing Tiger braking down with transmission trouble later as well, which makes it two "unprovoked" transmission failures. In the Jentz account, you can argue that only one tank suffered from "unprovoked" transmission trouble while all the others broke down because of misuse.

When the allied forces neared the collection point for the damaged vehicles, the Tigers were blown up - six according to Hart & Hart, nine according to the Jentz report.

One could argue that if the company had the support from the necessary recovery vehicles, they might have lost between five and seven fewer tanks, namely those that broke down trying to recover the other losses.

During its time in Italy prior to this incident (from mid-february), the battalion managed to keep about 57% of its vehicles operational on average, with a low of 17% and a high of 93%. And it did see a fair amount of combat in the period.

Bottom line is that I think this story is more about the Tigers mechanical fragility than it unreliability. It did not stand up well to abuse, but does that make it unreliable? And of course it speaks of the problems involved in being overrun by the enemy!

Claus B
Back to top
View user's profile
lehr
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiger I – pathetic reliability?

Thanks to all for your replies. It's easy to see the importance of firepower, armor and mobility, but now I have a greater appreciation for the importance of reliability and maintenance support.
Back to top
View user's profile
Dirk
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 115
Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiger I – pathetic reliability?

great thread - interesting discussion .

My 2 cents - The Tiger did the job it was designed for and thus could perhaps be viewed as a success.

Only thing was that the support system for the Tiger was not implemented , IIRC from a post-graduate course in Logistics Engineering I had :

Support the design and design the support .

My humble opinion Wink

Dirk
Back to top
View user's profile
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiger I – pathetic reliability?

One problem the late Tiger II chassis' had to worry about that I don't think the early Tiger I chassis did was slave labor teams being forced to assemble them. I recall (working of distant memory here) there's an account in the big 653rd book of Jadgtigers leaving the factory near war's en and hardly making it 40 miles out of town before most of them had broken down. It seems the radiators were so shoddily constructed that coolant flow was drastically restricted, quickly causing breakdowns due to overheating. It's tempting to imagine a heroic slave laborer risking death while purposefully soldering the radiators half-shut.

Its funny comparing this discussion with contemporary Allied accounts of German armor. It seems the grass in always greener on the other side. From the U.S. side the German tanks appeared to have better flotation (ground pressure), maneuverability, optics, armor, guns, engines (compared to the old radial), and pretty much everything else! Well, The U.S. tankers did prefer their own radios, turret drives, and HC smoke shell. But that's about it.
Back to top
View user's profile
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiger I – pathetic reliability?

- mike_Duplessis
One problem the late Tiger II chassis' had to worry about that I don't think the early Tiger I chassis did was slave labor teams being forced to assemble them. I recall (working of distant memory here) there's an account in the big 653rd book of Jadgtigers leaving the factory near war's en and hardly making it 40 miles out of town before most of them had broken down. It seems the radiators were so shoddily constructed that coolant flow was drastically restricted, quickly causing breakdowns due to overheating. It's tempting to imagine a heroic slave laborer risking death while purposefully soldering the radiators half-shut.


Or just doing sloppy work due to lack of training, skill, and motivation. But definately a factor - in one German plant (MAN Nürnberg), 55% of the work was made by foreign labour, non-Germans drafted as workers in the occupied countries.

- mike_Duplessis
Its funny comparing this discussion with contemporary Allied accounts of German armor. It seems the grass in always greener on the other side. From the U.S. side the German tanks appeared to have better flotation (ground pressure), maneuverability, optics, armor, guns, engines (compared to the old radial), and pretty much everything else! Well, The U.S. tankers did prefer their own radios, turret drives, and HC smoke shell. But that's about it.


That is really a different issue. Reliability, logistics and production concerns probably becomes a moot point if you are in the field, looking down the barrel of a bigger and badder enemy tank. On the other hand, if reliability, logistics and production does not work, you wont even have a tank, at least not at working one Smile

Claus B
Back to top
View user's profile
J.McGillivray
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 149

PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Tiger I – pathetic reliability?

Robin Neillands in his book “The Desert Rats 7th Armoured Division 1940 – 1945� sums things up nicely as followers:

“At this point it may be necessary to explain to a section of the readership that the successful development of a new weapon is far from being the end of the story. The weapon will have a designed range of technical features and benefits, but at least half the effectiveness of any weapon in battle will depend on how it is used, manned, serviced and deployed in battle….. How a weapon is used is therefore as critical to its success as its designed technical performance.�

People who sing the praises of the German cats often talk of their performance under ideal theoretical conditions; although those conditions were seldom encountered in the field. One must take into consideration the actual conditions there the cats were used, or misused.

For example the Panthers with their excellent gun and well sloped armoured, were often thrown into reckless, rushed, poorly planned and poorly supported counter attacks, in Normandy; which exposed the weaknesses of their design.

The most important fact that one must consider is that the Germans, in spite of their Tigers and Panthers, still lost the war. In other words the big cats failed to get the job done!
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum