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Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:03 pm
Post subject: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

Thats the story in Jane's Defence Weekly apparently...

Neil
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Hellfish6
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

Its been rumor and half truths for years now.
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

The article indicates negotiations are underway to purchase or buy for use in Afghanistan - the M777 howitzers were bought the same way. The tanks would come from German army reserve stocks & be upgraded with mine protection by KMW.

Neil
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Hellfish6
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

That was the rumor about two months ago when the decision on keeping the Leo1s was made. I think there were even reports of a Canadian team going over to Germany to begin the negotiations. That was all downplayed by the government and nothing ever came of it. Maybe the team was over there shopping for the Leo1 upgrades instead?

Either way, they just spent a bunch of money upgrading their Leo1s for service over there - that doesn't give me the impression that they're intending to replace them anytime soon.

That said, I'd love to see Canadian Leo2s. Or a Candian version of the Abrams that the Aussies got.
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Jason_Bobrowich
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

This is very quickly going beyond good rumour. I have been told directly from a contact at the Armour School that a team was sent to Germany on February 14th to start looking over the Leopard 2s.

There is no one looking at any more Leopard 1 upgrades for the Canadian Leopard C2s. Kraus-Maffei have told the Canadian Forces that they will no longer be making any Leopard 1 replacement parts...the Leopard 1 is done. Spare parts are currently being scavenged from where ever they can be found for the C2s in Afghanistan...including from Leopard C1 and C2 gate guards.

The numbers requested are-

20 Leopard 2A6Ms for use in Afghanistan...most likely these will leased as the German Army only has 40 of this variant.

80 Leopard 2A4s...no idea if these will be upgraded to Leopard 2A5 variant.

Funny that Jane's is only running a story now...this info has been out since February 9th.


Last edited by Jason_Bobrowich on Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:49 am; edited 3 times in total
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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:33 am
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

- Hellfish6

Either way, they just spent a bunch of money upgrading their Leo1s for service over there - that doesn't give me the impression that they're intending to replace them anytime soon.


The irony in Canadian budgeting is it is easier to fix the old whatevers than it is to buy new. The news releases on the C2 program were reluctant to admit to buying "new" tanks. No, these were replacement turrets (which happened to come on individual tracked turret transporters). The hulls were literally unmentionable.

Clive Law's book on Canadian sniper rifles recounts how the C3 sniper rifles have become a classic example. I paraphrase; one year the Life Cycle Material Manager (LCMM) bought barrels and stocks. The next year he bought new receivers. Under a separate contract the old rifles were rebuilt. The upshot was 1970s' Parker Hale 1200TX rifles swapped out for 1980's Parker Hale M87 receivers! They aren't new rifles - they're replacement parts.
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Hellfish6
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:34 am
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

Yeah. Check it out. Guess your source was dead on, Neal.

www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-leo...afghan.htm

Rumours emerged on 10 Feb 2007 that Canada was tank shopping in Germany. Media reports [1] said that Canada had negotiated the lease of 20 Leopard 2A6M tanks from Bundeswehr stocks and purchased 80 more older Leopard 2A4s. The newer 2A6Ms, which have add-on mine-protection, would be sent to Kandahar. Less well-protected Leopard 2A4s would go to Canada for training purposes. Both models differ considerably from serving Leopard C2s.


Since the latest Leopard model [2] cannot be delivered quickly, the 2A6M was leased instead – mine protection includes added floor plates, blast-resistant crew seats, plus revised ammunition stowage. The basic vehicle is a Leopard 2A6 [3] with third-generation composite armour (similar in both shape and composition to the heavy MEXAS add-on armour kits applied to the Canadian Forces Leopard C2s sent to Kandahar).


The older Leopard 2A4 has a completely different turret with more upright armour. The gun is also different. Both 2A4s and 2A6Ms have Rheinmetall 120mm smooth bore guns but the 2A6 gun barrel is 1.3m longer. This gives the gun higher muzzle velocity (more useful in tank battles than in the direct-fire support role). Secondary armament for both Leopard models is two 7.62mm machineguns – presumably C6s for 2A4s and German MG3s [4] for 2A6Ms.


This lease/purchase surprised Canadian media but deployed Leopards are wearing out fast and it may be simpler/cheaper to replace than repair. In light of the German refusal to send troops to Kandahar, it galls to see Canadian defence dollars building up Angela Merkel’s treasury. Still, needs must and the deal means quick delivery, spares, maintenance software etc.
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Jason_Bobrowich
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

The CASR article is just compiled from existing media articles. They have no source or CF insider information.

Just so you know CASR articles and their editorial opinions are not seen as fully credible by serving or ex-military. They are based at Simon Fraser University in the Vancouver area. The articles are interesting but they appear to do a lot of surmising and unconfirmed foreshadowing.

Even in the article they are stating that the new tanks have already been leased/purchased....not confirmed yet.
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J.McGillivray
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

Ottawa to lease 20 new tanks for Afghan mission
Updated Tue. Apr. 3 2007 5:42 PM ET
Canadian Press
OTTAWA -- A federal cabinet committee has given the green light to the lease of 20 state-of-the-art tanks to replace aging armoured vehicles in Afghanistan, The Canadian Press has learned.
The cabinet priorities and planning committee approved the lease of the German-built Leopard A6M tanks last week, said a Defence Department source, who asked not to be named.
The recommendation, which is unlikely to be overturned, is now on Prime Minister Stephen Harper's desk for final approval.
The news Tuesday came as Gen. Andrew Leslie, the country's top army officer, said he might have to consider pulling existing tanks -- which don't have air conditioning -- out of service in Afghanistan this summer because of the heat.
He also told troops in Kandahar to expect a decision from the prime minister on the new tanks within a week.
The new tanks have air conditioning, as well as improved protection against road-side bombs and suicide vehicles, both of which have been packing progressively bigger punches lately.
The army has a handful of older Leopard tanks, which are currently doing duty in western Kandahar as part of NATO's Operation Achilles.
The deal, which apparently includes access to ample spare parts, also gives Canada the option to purchase an unspecified number of additional tanks at a later date.
Reports last winter suggested that in addition to a lease, the army wanted to purchase 80 new Leopards, but the source said that number is likely to be scaled back.
Harper wouldn't bite on questions about the future of the vehicles.
"Cabinet has been discussing the tank issue and we'll have an announcement on that shortly,'' he said in Kitchener, Ont.
Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor, in Montreal for a speech, said he wasn't aware the issue was resolved.
A Defence Department spokesman didn't deny that a lease arrangement has been struck.
"We are exploring a number of options to address an operational requirement,'' said Lt. Adam Thomson. "However, we have nothing to announce at this moment.''
The defence source could not say how much the arrangement was worth, but brand new Leopard tanks cost roughly US $6 million each.
Currently, the army has 17 of its old 45-tonne tanks patrolling the desert and dirt roadways of rural Kandahar. The biggest drawback to the vehicles is their lack of air conditioning in a climate where daytime summer temperatures soar above 50C.
Defence Department researchers have looked at installing air conditioners in the vehicles but that would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars per vehicle.
Another idea proposes to give tank crew cooling vests - the same kind used by professional race car drivers - but they would be cumbersome when layered along with existing body armour.
Aside from the comfort factor, the lease of new tanks is seen as a more cost-effective solution, said the defence source.
Alex Morrison of the Canadian Institute of Strategic Studies said buying new equipment is better than retrofitting.
"It just makes more sense,'' he said. "This is a decision that's been in the mill for at least the last seven months.''
New Democrat defence critic Dawn Black said she's not opposed to the lease arrangement, but only because it means tank crews won't have to roast.
"I think it was irresponsible to deploy them, knowing they weren't suitable for the climate,'' she said.
In February, a policy think-tank produced a report that criticized Canada's deployment of tanks to Afghanistan, saying the 1970s vintage Leopard-C2 vehicles were vulnerable to insurgent attacks.
Researcher Michael Wallace, of the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, argued that new Leopard A6Ms would also be vulnerable to road-side bombs and rocket-propelled grenades. He said the introduction of tanks had the potential to spark an "arms race'' with insurgents, prompting the Taliban to build bigger bombs.
Morrison dismissed the arguments, calling them ridiculous.
"What would they have us do?'' he asked. "Take the tanks home and then the insurgents won't use whatever weapon they have? What will happen in the end is the insurgents would control the whole country.''

www.ctv.ca/servlet/Art...hub=Canada

edit:CTV news combined two stories together and killed the link I posted above. Here is the new link to the re-written article.

www.ctv.ca/servlet/Art...TopStories
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

Its been formally announced - 2A6s even...

www.forces.gc.ca/site/...sp?id=2251
Protection the top priority with tank acquisition
NR–07.022 - April 12, 2007

QUEBEC CITY, QUEBEC – The ongoing commitment of Canada’s New Government to the safety of Canadian Forces members engaged in deployed operations was front and centre today when the Honourable Gordon O’Connor, Minister of National Defence, the Honourable Michael Fortier, Minister of Public Works and Government Services, and General Rick Hillier, Chief of the Defence Staff, confirmed plans to renew the Canadian Forces’ tank capability.

To replace the Canadian Forces’ 30-year old Leopard 1 tanks, the Government will purchase up to 100 Leopard 2 tanks, as well as securing the loan of 20 Leopard 2A6 tanks for use in Afghanistan this summer. The Leopard 2 tanks are newer, more heavily armoured and more technologically advanced than Canada’s Leopard 1s. Their advanced features include significantly increased personnel protection against explosive devices and landmines, an ability to travel considerably faster in difficult terrain, more powerful engines, and stronger firing capabilities.

“Equipping Canada’s soldiers with the best protection is my top priority. By immediately acquiring stronger and more heavily protected tanks, our soldiers in Afghanistan have the best equipment possible to offer them protection during this mission,� said Minister O’Connor. “This government is committed to providing our Canadian Forces with the equipment they need to do the very demanding jobs we have asked of them.�

Minister Fortier said: “This announcement demonstrates Canada’s New Government’s commitment to procure critical operational equipment as quickly as possible for the Canadian Forces, while getting the best value for Canadian taxpayers.�

When examining the surplus tank option, Canada approached six allied nations to enquire about availability and thoroughly evaluated all formal proposals.

“Simply put, tanks help save lives and provide soldiers the right tools for the mission while enhancing their protection,� said General Hillier. “In Afghanistan, Canada’s Leopard 1 tanks have provided close direct fire support and mitigated the threat of mines and improvised explosive devices. This acquisition will further enhance the protection available to our soldiers.�

The 100 Leopard 2 tanks will be purchased from the Netherlands for the long-term requirements of the Canadian Forces, and should be delivered to Canada soon after completion of the government-to-government agreement, anticipated by end of summer 2007. They will be upgraded in Canada to final Canadian Forces standards.

The 20 combat-ready Leopard 2A6 main battle tanks will be loaned by Germany for short-term requirements and will be deployed to Afghanistan this summer with the next rotation of Canadian troops. In addition to being newer, more heavily protected and more technologically advanced, the Leopard 2A6s will generate significantly less heat than the hydraulic systems of Canada’s 30-year-old Leopard 1 fleet.

The Leopard 1 tanks were first deployed in Afghanistan fall 2006 to meet new operational requirements of the Canadian Forces.

Sale of 100 Leopard Tanks to Canada
Netherlands Ministry of Defence: April 12, 2007

Defence has sold hundred Leopard fighting tanks to Canada. The
agreement was confessed made during the visit of the Minister of
Defence, Eimert van Middelkoop, to Canada.

It concerns twenty Leopard 2A6s and eighty Leopard 2A4s.

Disposal of the tanks is a result of an earlier decision to reduce
the main battle tank inventory of the Dutch Army. The Netherlands
will retain 110 operational Leopard 2 A6 tanks.

Canada will upgrade and modernize the Leopards at its own expense.
The Netherlands will provide training for Canadian instructors as
part of the agreement. Training will begin in May.

Defence minister Eimert van Middelkoop was in Canada to attend the
Regional Command South Ministerial meeting in Quebec.

Backgrounder: Renewing the Canadian Forces' Tank Capability
BG–07.012 - April 12, 2007

THE REQUIREMENT
The heavily protected direct fire capability of a main battle tank is an invaluable tool in the arsenal of any military. The intensity of recent conflicts in Central Asia and the Middle East has shown western militaries that tanks provide protection that cannot be matched by more lightly armoured wheeled vehicles.

Simply put, tanks save lives, providing soldiers with a high level of protection. In Afghanistan, the Taliban’s use of lethal and readily available anti-armour weapons, such as improvised explosive devices (IEDs), is a clear threat. Canada’s Leopard 1 tanks have provided close direct fire support and mitigated the threat of IEDs, as well as landmines. The tanks have also provided the Canadian Forces (CF) with the capability to travel to locations that would otherwise be inaccessible to wheeled light armoured vehicles, including Taliban defensive positions.

Renewing Canada’s tank capability will enable the CF to meet current operational needs in the short and long term. Canada’s 30-year old Leopard 1 tanks are due for replacement, and Leopard 2 tanks offer more protection against IEDs and landmines; and are technologically more advanced than their predecessor. Furthermore, by 2012 there will no longer be logistics support and spare parts for the turrets of Leopard 1s, resulting in complete obsolescence by 2015.

THE PROCESS
A number of options for renewing the tank capability were considered, ranging from refurbishment to surplus to new.

Refurbishing the tanks is not an option as the 30-year old Leopard 1 turrets will be obsolete in 2015. It is also unsuited to operations in hot climates. Acquiring new tanks off a production line was also examined, but delivery would not occur for a few years and the individual tank cost is approximately three times as expensive as procuring and upgrading the same capability that exists on the surplus market.

When examining the surplus tank option, Canada approached six allied nations to enquire about availability. Formal proposals from three nations were thoroughly evaluated by Public Works and Government Services Canada and the Department of National Defence (DND) in terms of price, upgrade costs, delivery schedule, operational performance, survivability and through-life operating and maintenance costs. Based on this evaluation, the decision was taken to acquire up to 100 surplus Leopard 2 tanks from the Netherlands and negotiate a short-term loan arrangement with Germany to borrow 20 combat-ready Leopard 2A6 main battle tanks to address immediate operational requirements. This decision represented the most balanced and affordable approach for both short-and long-term requirements.

Canada is negotiating government-to-government agreements for both borrowing and acquiring the Leopard 2 tanks. The total project cost of the loaned tanks, the acquisition of 100 surplus tanks from the Netherlands, the requisite upgrades and enhancements to this new Leopard 2 fleet, and an initial acquisition of spare parts is $650 million, which will be funded from existing departmental allocations.

DEPLOYING COMBAT-READY TANKS
The tanks being loaned from Germany are fully operational, and will be deployed to Afghanistan in conjunction with the next rotation of personnel this summer.

These tanks are able to operate in intense heat as their electric turret systems and more powerful engines generate significantly less heat when operating than the hydraulic systems of Canada’s 30-year-old Leopard 1 fleet. They will also be fitted with climate control systems once in theatre.

ACQUIRING A PROVEN, MODERN MAIN BATTLE TANK
The surplus, modern Leopard 2 tanks being acquired from the Netherlands represent a unique opportunity to acquire proven, effective main battle tanks at a fraction of the cost of a similar, new tank. These tanks have been well maintained and stored in climate-controlled facilities. Due diligence has shown that these tanks will serve Canada effectively, well into the future. In addition, surplus Leopard 2 tanks have been acquired by a number of nations in recent years and have been put into operational service very successfully. This is a proven capability. Their advanced features include significantly increased personnel protection against explosive devices and landmines, an ability to travel considerably faster in difficult terrain, more powerful engines, and stronger firing capabilities.

CANADA’S NEW LEOPARD 2 FLEET
The acquisition of 100 tanks represents the minimum fleet size to support a deployed tank squadron. These 100 vehicles would be broken down into operational and supporting squadrons as follows:

For deployed operations, the Canadian Forces need two combat-ready squadrons of approximately 20 tanks each: one for deployment and a second for rotation into theatre to allow for depot repair and overhaul of the first.
An additional two squadrons of 20 tanks each are required for collective and individual training in Canada.
Individual tank training would be conducted by the squadron based at the Combat Training Centre at CFB Gagetown in New Brunswick
The squadron based at CFB Wainwright at the Canadian Manoeuvre Training Centre would conduct collective unit training to prepare for deployments.
The final 20 vehicles will consist of key support vehicles such as armoured recovery vehicles, armoured bridge-laying vehicles and armoured engineering vehicles (i.e. dozer, plough, excavator).
BENEFITS FOR CANADIANS
This acquisition represents a significant opportunity for Canadian industry. Once negotiations are complete, the Dutch Leopard 2 tanks will be transported to Canada where they will receive the necessary upgrades to final Canadian Forces standards.

In the coming months, the Government of Canada will conduct one or more fair, open and competitive processes for the long-term in-service support of this fleet.

The Canadian Industrial Benefits policy will apply as appropriate. In this context, it may apply to future support, repair or upgrade contracts. The Canadian Industrial Benefits policy is the Government of Canada’s way of leveraging benefits to the Canadian economy as a result of our defence procurements.

THE FUTURE
The Canadian Forces have always planned to retain a direct-fire capability and recent conflicts have confirmed the importance of retaining a tracked tank capability. The Leopard 2 main battle tanks will bring strength, added protection and the ability to access difficult terrain that a wheeled vehicle cannot provide.

This acquisition is a further demonstration of Canada’s New Government’s commitment to renew and transform the Canadian Forces, providing them the equipment they need to do the demanding jobs we as Canadians ask them to do.
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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

"CANADA’S NEW LEOPARD 2 FLEET
The acquisition of 100 tanks represents the minimum fleet size to support a deployed tank squadron. These 100 vehicles would be broken down into operational and supporting squadrons as follows:

For deployed operations, the Canadian Forces need two combat-ready squadrons of approximately 20 tanks each: one for deployment and a second for rotation into theatre to allow for depot repair and overhaul of the first.

An additional two squadrons of 20 tanks each are required for collective and individual training in Canada. Individual tank training would be conducted by the squadron based at the Combat Training Centre at CFB Gagetown in New Brunswick

The squadron based at CFB Wainwright at the Canadian Manoeuvre Training Centre would conduct collective unit training to prepare for deployments.

The final 20 vehicles will consist of key support vehicles such as armoured recovery vehicles, armoured bridge-laying vehicles and armoured engineering vehicles (i.e. dozer, plough, excavator)."

So I wonder if the Beaver engineer vehicles will stay in use until the newer ones arrive?
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L.Delsing
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:03 am
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

That explains the 2 lowloaders with Leopard 2A4s on the highway towards Rotterdam last week. Rumours are that the Canadians will be trained on this tanks by the operational tankbatallions and not the cavalry school.

I have to dig up my old Leopard 2A4 mastergunner licence Mr. Green
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Jason_Bobrowich
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

All the Leopard 2A4s that Canada is purchasing from the Dutch will be upgraded to the Leopard 2A6 version with additional Canadian modifications.

40 of the 80 2A6s will be further upgraded to the 2A6M version with additional mine protection. 20 of the 2A6Ms will be deployed to Afghanistan when the German loaned 2A6Ms are returned in the summer of 2008. The other 20 2A6Ms will be kept in Canada on standby as operational replacements for the tanks in Afghanistan.

Canadian armoured instructors will first go the Netherlands starting in May and then to Germany. The Germans will instruct the Canadian crewman that will take the German loaned 2A6Ms to Afghanistan and the Canadian instructors will shadow them while the instruction is taking place. For the tours to follow in 2008 the instructors for the crewman will be Canadian.

The Badger, Beaver, and Taurus will all be replaced with Leopard 2 based vehicles. They will stay in use until the new vehicles arrive.

Don't be suprised to see the Leopard C2 still operating in combat in Afghanistan along side the German loaned Leopard 2A6Ms....the C2 has the dozer blade, mine plow, and mine rollers....the 2A6M does not.
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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

- Jason_Bobrowich


The Badger, Beaver, and Taurus will all be replaced with Leopard 2 based vehicles. They will stay in use until the new vehicles arrive.

Don't be suprised to see the Leopard C2 still operating in combat in Afghanistan along side the German loaned Leopard 2A6Ms....the C2 has the dozer blade, mine plow, and mine rollers....the 2A6M does not.


Those specialist vehicles may yet prove to be the war winners. Dozer blade vs mud wall; Beaver excavator arm vs grape hut; and mine plow vs double stack AT mine. I haven't seen much in the news about gun tanks except for a few direct fire missions from one of the FOBs.
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Jason_Bobrowich
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Canada to buy or lease Leopard 2s?

The Badger is the AEV and the Beaver is the AVLB...no Beaver AVLBs deployed to Afghanistan.

OPSEC is the reason no one is seeing what exactly the tanks or Badgers are doing over there and believe me I have talked to some of the returning crews already and they are doing much more than sitting in the FOBs.
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