±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 636
Total: 636
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Statistics
03: Downloads
04: Member Screenshots
05: Community Forums
06: Photo Gallery
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Photo Gallery
13: Downloads
14: Community Forums
15: Statistics
16: Downloads
17: Photo Gallery
18: Downloads
19: Community Forums
20: Home
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: News Archive
24: Photo Gallery
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Photo Gallery
31: Community Forums
32: Photo Gallery
33: Home
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Photo Gallery
37: Community Forums
38: Downloads
39: Community Forums
40: Photo Gallery
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Photo Gallery
44: Downloads
45: Photo Gallery
46: News Archive
47: Home
48: CPGlang
49: Photo Gallery
50: Community Forums
51: Photo Gallery
52: Member Screenshots
53: Downloads
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Photo Gallery
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Photo Gallery
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Home
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Photo Gallery
70: Photo Gallery
71: Photo Gallery
72: Community Forums
73: Photo Gallery
74: Photo Gallery
75: Home
76: Community Forums
77: Photo Gallery
78: Home
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Downloads
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Photo Gallery
86: Photo Gallery
87: Community Forums
88: Member Screenshots
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Photo Gallery
92: Community Forums
93: Statistics
94: Community Forums
95: Your Account
96: Photo Gallery
97: CPGlang
98: Member Screenshots
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Downloads
105: Community Forums
106: Home
107: Home
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Photo Gallery
111: Member Screenshots
112: Community Forums
113: News Archive
114: Community Forums
115: News
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Downloads
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Photo Gallery
126: Community Forums
127: Photo Gallery
128: Home
129: Your Account
130: Photo Gallery
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Photo Gallery
135: Photo Gallery
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Photo Gallery
141: Community Forums
142: Downloads
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Photo Gallery
146: Community Forums
147: Photo Gallery
148: Community Forums
149: Photo Gallery
150: Photo Gallery
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Photo Gallery
158: Photo Gallery
159: Photo Gallery
160: Community Forums
161: News Archive
162: Photo Gallery
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Photo Gallery
167: Community Forums
168: Photo Gallery
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Photo Gallery
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Photo Gallery
182: Photo Gallery
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Photo Gallery
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Photo Gallery
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Photo Gallery
192: Community Forums
193: Member Screenshots
194: Photo Gallery
195: Community Forums
196: CPGlang
197: Statistics
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Home
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Home
211: Photo Gallery
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Home
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Photo Gallery
226: Photo Gallery
227: Community Forums
228: Photo Gallery
229: Home
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Home
235: Community Forums
236: Photo Gallery
237: Photo Gallery
238: Member Screenshots
239: Downloads
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Photo Gallery
243: Photo Gallery
244: Home
245: Community Forums
246: Downloads
247: Photo Gallery
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Home
252: Community Forums
253: Downloads
254: News Archive
255: Photo Gallery
256: Community Forums
257: Your Account
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Photo Gallery
261: Photo Gallery
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Photo Gallery
266: Photo Gallery
267: Your Account
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Photo Gallery
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Photo Gallery
276: Home
277: Your Account
278: Downloads
279: Community Forums
280: Photo Gallery
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Home
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Home
287: Home
288: Community Forums
289: Photo Gallery
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Home
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Photo Gallery
302: Photo Gallery
303: Photo Gallery
304: Your Account
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: Downloads
308: Photo Gallery
309: Photo Gallery
310: Photo Gallery
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Home
314: Home
315: Statistics
316: Photo Gallery
317: Community Forums
318: Home
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: News Archive
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Photo Gallery
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Home
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Statistics
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Statistics
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Home
343: Home
344: Community Forums
345: Downloads
346: Community Forums
347: Home
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Photo Gallery
356: Photo Gallery
357: Community Forums
358: Photo Gallery
359: Community Forums
360: Photo Gallery
361: Photo Gallery
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Photo Gallery
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Your Account
372: Community Forums
373: Statistics
374: Photo Gallery
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Downloads
378: Your Account
379: Community Forums
380: Downloads
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Your Account
385: Community Forums
386: Photo Gallery
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: CPGlang
390: Photo Gallery
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Home
396: Photo Gallery
397: Downloads
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Member Screenshots
402: Photo Gallery
403: Home
404: Home
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Downloads
408: Community Forums
409: Photo Gallery
410: Photo Gallery
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Home
421: Photo Gallery
422: Community Forums
423: Photo Gallery
424: Photo Gallery
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Home
439: Photo Gallery
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Photo Gallery
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Photo Gallery
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Photo Gallery
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Home
462: Photo Gallery
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Photo Gallery
466: Photo Gallery
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Home
470: Statistics
471: Community Forums
472: Photo Gallery
473: Photo Gallery
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Downloads
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Home
480: Community Forums
481: Photo Gallery
482: Your Account
483: Community Forums
484: Photo Gallery
485: Community Forums
486: CPGlang
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Member Screenshots
492: Community Forums
493: Photo Gallery
494: Member Screenshots
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Downloads
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Member Screenshots
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Photo Gallery
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Photo Gallery
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Photo Gallery
521: Photo Gallery
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Photo Gallery
525: News Archive
526: Community Forums
527: Photo Gallery
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Downloads
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Photo Gallery
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Photo Gallery
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Downloads
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Downloads
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Photo Gallery
556: Home
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Photo Gallery
560: Community Forums
561: Home
562: Community Forums
563: Community Forums
564: Community Forums
565: Downloads
566: Photo Gallery
567: Downloads
568: Home
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Photo Gallery
573: News
574: Your Account
575: Home
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Home
580: Community Forums
581: Photo Gallery
582: Community Forums
583: Downloads
584: Downloads
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Community Forums
589: Member Screenshots
590: News Archive
591: Home
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Home
595: Community Forums
596: Home
597: Photo Gallery
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Photo Gallery
601: Photo Gallery
602: Community Forums
603: Downloads
604: Photo Gallery
605: Community Forums
606: Photo Gallery
607: Photo Gallery
608: Home
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Community Forums
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Home
616: Community Forums
617: Community Forums
618: Statistics
619: Photo Gallery
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: CPGlang
627: Community Forums
628: Home
629: Home
630: Home
631: Community Forums
632: Statistics
633: Photo Gallery
634: Community Forums
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
T26E4
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 14, 2006
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:21 pm
Post subject: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

Howdy everyone. I posted this thread over on Missing-Lynx to try to explain how the damage was sustained on these two Soviet Lend Lease M4A2s. Any thoughts?

www.network54.com/Foru...mor-+M4A2s
Back to top
View user's profile
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 10:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

I'm stumped! Can't even guess! Neutral


_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 10:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

WE have discussed this before. Its shipping damage probably caused by the cargo shifting during a storm - more common than you would think apparently. The dings are the same distance apart as something in the side of a liberty ship hold.

Cool

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 12:21 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

I'd hate to see the hold of the Liberty ship after 35-odd tons of Sherman cannonballed around a few times.

In the late 1980's I worked in a Canadian Forces office that had technical manuals for all sorts of things. One was how to load ships. I was surprised to see diagrams of conventional through-deck loading techniques of what sure looked like a Liberty Ship. The CF had not had much experience loading ships in serving memory; things sure changed with the Balkans rotations.

Later I met a man I knew as a British exchange officer who resigned and came straight into the CF at the same rank and approximate seniority. He explained that specialists who had a skill not held by a Canadian could do what he'd done. His was loading ships.
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 12:35 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

Hi Jim! Hi Folks!

- JimWeb

Its shipping damage probably caused by the cargo shifting during a storm - more common than you would think apparently. The dings are the same distance apart as something in the side of a liberty ship hold.
Cool


I have trouble seeing a collision takening place with enough force to damage armored plate like, but yet the tank didn't punch through the side of a liberty ship. Liberty ships had a problem with hulls that were too weak to withstand heavy storms. A number of them broke in half and sank because of that weakness.

I have no idea what cause that, but I for one, have trouble buying it was caused by hitting the side of a cargo ship during a storm.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 1:36 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

I have to agree with Roy on this one. Most Liberty ships were built to withstand pressure / contact from the outside, not the inside. I can believe the ship would sustain damage but to dent a tank, seems very unlikely and unbelievable. I would love to see this tank in person. Looking at the road wheels, it looks "pieced" together at best.
This VVSS Sherman seems to have the 75mm gun, no pistol port, and early small "weep" (drain) holes at the rear of the turret splash guard. Having looked at the pictures on the site you list, I can tell it's a Chrysler build by the front "half round fill weld piece" over the diff's.
My guess is much of this tank is "cobbeled: together with various parts and steel plating. There are no vents over the engine compartment, and there is a hollow opening in the rear of each upper rear deck area, one of which appears ripped open, (see additional photo's). I'd like to know the serial number, (I'm sure Kurt Laughlin and Joe DeMarco would like to know as well.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 8:27 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

- Roy_A_Lingle

I have trouble seeing a collision takening place with enough force to damage armored plate like, but yet the tank didn't punch through the side of a liberty ship. Liberty ships had a problem with hulls that were too weak to withstand heavy storms. A number of them broke in half and sank because of that weakness.


It was the welded versions using the North Atlantic run to Murmansk that had the problem according to my tame ship guy Gibbo... if a crack started on a welded version there was nothing to stop it. The riveted versions were okay in the cold that far north (cracks stopped at the edge of a plate) so they were mainly used on that run... The technical expression for 'things inside the hull' I was looking for was 'frames' apparently...

There is an image floating around of a Sherman being unloaded in Murmansk with similar dents... I'll get Gibbo to see if he can find it as he told me about it.

I'm almost sure we had another image of similar damage caused to a Sherman on the old board... It was parked under a tree IIRC?

Cool

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Sabot
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Kentucky
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 9:01 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

Lent it to the Mrs.?

_________________
RobG
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 9:48 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

I remember the thread on the old board also. If I remember correctly we had pictures of more than one with similar damage. I can think of some other scenarios during shipment that could cause such damage.

An improperly secured tank hitting other heavy cargo (Such as large steel plates being shipped) or the other cargo shifting and hitting a properly secured tank (anything very heavy with sharp edges) A railroad derailment which sent the tank down an embankment into large boulders seems a possibility.

Of course the damage could have occured later in the tanks life such as being pushed out of the way after being damaged and having other equipment pushed into it but I vaguely remember pictures of tanks being unloaded with similar damage at a port

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 10:03 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

- Sabot
Lent it to the Mrs.?


LOL

Cool

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 10:12 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

just thinking out loud here but the dents do seem very regular, I'm wondering if it might have been off loaded with some sort of a claw device rather then cables? sort of like a crane vending machine but waay bigger.

Jeff Lewis
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Claymore
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 27, 2006
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:44 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

Guys, I think Ive figured it out. This sherman looks like it's been restored from a wreck. Could it be that the side armour was missing/damaged and has been replaced with mild steel or aluminium cut to shape and welded in place. It would be very easy to damage or dent. The texture of the surface does not look like any rolled armour plate i've ever seen, but it does look like a sheet of aluminium.
Back to top
View user's profile
T26E4
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 14, 2006
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:23 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it happen?

Claymore: If you note, I've cited TWO separate tanks with the same indentations. Over on ML, the "replaced side walls" theory has been bandied about as well. However, I tend to doubt it because if you look carefully at the dented walls' weld seams, they look intact and there's no indication of a replacement milder steel sidewall.

Also I've seen very smooth hull walls. Look at this post:

www.network54.com/Foru...179785806/

See the M4A3? Smooth too.
Back to top
View user's profile
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:15 am
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

Where's Hanno? He's got to have a theory!

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 1:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Dented and buckled armor on M4a2 Sherman: how did it hap

Here is the one under the tree...


_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum