±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 891
Total: 891
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Photo Gallery
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Downloads
06: Member Screenshots
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: News Archive
10: Home
11: Downloads
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Home
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Member Screenshots
21: Downloads
22: Community Forums
23: Home
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Photo Gallery
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Photo Gallery
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Downloads
34: Photo Gallery
35: Community Forums
36: Downloads
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Downloads
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Home
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Downloads
48: Community Forums
49: Home
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Home
57: Member Screenshots
58: Home
59: Home
60: Member Screenshots
61: Home
62: Photo Gallery
63: Home
64: Photo Gallery
65: Community Forums
66: Home
67: Community Forums
68: Photo Gallery
69: Community Forums
70: Home
71: Home
72: Community Forums
73: Photo Gallery
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Downloads
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Downloads
87: Photo Gallery
88: Home
89: Member Screenshots
90: Photo Gallery
91: News
92: Member Screenshots
93: Community Forums
94: Member Screenshots
95: Home
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Home
99: Home
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Downloads
105: Downloads
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Photo Gallery
109: Downloads
110: Community Forums
111: Photo Gallery
112: News Archive
113: Member Screenshots
114: Community Forums
115: Home
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: News Archive
119: Photo Gallery
120: Home
121: Photo Gallery
122: Photo Gallery
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Photo Gallery
128: Community Forums
129: Photo Gallery
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Photo Gallery
133: Photo Gallery
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Member Screenshots
137: Community Forums
138: Your Account
139: News
140: Community Forums
141: Photo Gallery
142: Community Forums
143: Photo Gallery
144: Photo Gallery
145: Home
146: Photo Gallery
147: Photo Gallery
148: Home
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Photo Gallery
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Member Screenshots
156: Photo Gallery
157: Downloads
158: Community Forums
159: Photo Gallery
160: Photo Gallery
161: Community Forums
162: Photo Gallery
163: Photo Gallery
164: Photo Gallery
165: Downloads
166: Member Screenshots
167: Community Forums
168: Photo Gallery
169: Community Forums
170: Member Screenshots
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Photo Gallery
174: Photo Gallery
175: Photo Gallery
176: Community Forums
177: Photo Gallery
178: Community Forums
179: Photo Gallery
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Photo Gallery
183: Photo Gallery
184: Community Forums
185: Member Screenshots
186: Community Forums
187: Downloads
188: Photo Gallery
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Member Screenshots
192: Photo Gallery
193: Photo Gallery
194: Member Screenshots
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Photo Gallery
201: Community Forums
202: Photo Gallery
203: Community Forums
204: News Archive
205: Downloads
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Photo Gallery
209: News
210: Photo Gallery
211: Downloads
212: Photo Gallery
213: Photo Gallery
214: News
215: Community Forums
216: Home
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Home
220: Statistics
221: News Archive
222: Photo Gallery
223: Photo Gallery
224: Member Screenshots
225: Photo Gallery
226: Member Screenshots
227: Community Forums
228: Photo Gallery
229: Community Forums
230: Photo Gallery
231: Photo Gallery
232: Home
233: Member Screenshots
234: Photo Gallery
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Member Screenshots
239: Community Forums
240: Downloads
241: Photo Gallery
242: Community Forums
243: Downloads
244: Home
245: Downloads
246: Photo Gallery
247: Photo Gallery
248: Downloads
249: Community Forums
250: Photo Gallery
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Your Account
256: Photo Gallery
257: Member Screenshots
258: Home
259: Community Forums
260: Photo Gallery
261: Photo Gallery
262: Community Forums
263: Home
264: Photo Gallery
265: Community Forums
266: Home
267: News Archive
268: Home
269: Home
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Downloads
273: Community Forums
274: Home
275: Photo Gallery
276: Community Forums
277: Home
278: Photo Gallery
279: Community Forums
280: Member Screenshots
281: Downloads
282: Community Forums
283: Photo Gallery
284: Member Screenshots
285: Photo Gallery
286: Community Forums
287: News Archive
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Home
292: Home
293: Community Forums
294: Member Screenshots
295: Home
296: Photo Gallery
297: Downloads
298: Home
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: News Archive
303: Downloads
304: Photo Gallery
305: Home
306: Community Forums
307: Member Screenshots
308: Community Forums
309: Member Screenshots
310: Downloads
311: Member Screenshots
312: Community Forums
313: Member Screenshots
314: Member Screenshots
315: Home
316: Home
317: Home
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Member Screenshots
321: Photo Gallery
322: Community Forums
323: Photo Gallery
324: Member Screenshots
325: Home
326: Home
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Your Account
330: Photo Gallery
331: Home
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Member Screenshots
336: Home
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Your Account
340: Tell a Friend
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Home
344: Photo Gallery
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: News Archive
348: Community Forums
349: Home
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Photo Gallery
353: Home
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Home
360: Community Forums
361: Home
362: Community Forums
363: Home
364: Member Screenshots
365: Community Forums
366: Home
367: Community Forums
368: News
369: Community Forums
370: Photo Gallery
371: Community Forums
372: Photo Gallery
373: Home
374: Community Forums
375: Home
376: Community Forums
377: Downloads
378: Photo Gallery
379: Downloads
380: Member Screenshots
381: Home
382: Community Forums
383: Photo Gallery
384: Community Forums
385: Photo Gallery
386: Community Forums
387: Home
388: Home
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Downloads
392: Home
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Home
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Photo Gallery
402: Community Forums
403: Downloads
404: Community Forums
405: Home
406: Community Forums
407: Photo Gallery
408: Home
409: Home
410: Home
411: Home
412: Community Forums
413: Photo Gallery
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Home
419: Home
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Home
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Home
427: Community Forums
428: Your Account
429: Member Screenshots
430: Community Forums
431: Member Screenshots
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: News Archive
435: Community Forums
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Photo Gallery
439: Photo Gallery
440: Member Screenshots
441: Community Forums
442: Home
443: Home
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Photo Gallery
448: Home
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Home
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Member Screenshots
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: News Archive
464: Home
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Home
469: Community Forums
470: Home
471: Downloads
472: Downloads
473: Home
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Photo Gallery
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Photo Gallery
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Your Account
487: Community Forums
488: Home
489: Community Forums
490: Home
491: Member Screenshots
492: Member Screenshots
493: Home
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Member Screenshots
500: Home
501: News Archive
502: Community Forums
503: Downloads
504: Community Forums
505: Home
506: Your Account
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Photo Gallery
510: Home
511: Photo Gallery
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Home
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: Member Screenshots
519: Home
520: Photo Gallery
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Home
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Member Screenshots
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Photo Gallery
540: Home
541: Home
542: Member Screenshots
543: Community Forums
544: Photo Gallery
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Member Screenshots
548: Member Screenshots
549: News Archive
550: News Archive
551: Home
552: Member Screenshots
553: Community Forums
554: Photo Gallery
555: Community Forums
556: Photo Gallery
557: Photo Gallery
558: Community Forums
559: Community Forums
560: Photo Gallery
561: Community Forums
562: News
563: Home
564: Community Forums
565: Photo Gallery
566: Community Forums
567: Photo Gallery
568: Photo Gallery
569: Photo Gallery
570: Community Forums
571: News Archive
572: Photo Gallery
573: Community Forums
574: Photo Gallery
575: Community Forums
576: Photo Gallery
577: Member Screenshots
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Photo Gallery
581: Member Screenshots
582: Home
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Photo Gallery
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Photo Gallery
589: Community Forums
590: Photo Gallery
591: Photo Gallery
592: Photo Gallery
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Community Forums
599: Photo Gallery
600: Photo Gallery
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Downloads
604: Photo Gallery
605: Community Forums
606: Photo Gallery
607: Photo Gallery
608: Community Forums
609: Downloads
610: Downloads
611: Community Forums
612: Photo Gallery
613: Community Forums
614: Photo Gallery
615: Home
616: Community Forums
617: Photo Gallery
618: Photo Gallery
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Home
622: Community Forums
623: Downloads
624: News Archive
625: Home
626: Downloads
627: News
628: Community Forums
629: Community Forums
630: Downloads
631: Photo Gallery
632: Community Forums
633: Community Forums
634: Community Forums
635: Community Forums
636: Photo Gallery
637: Photo Gallery
638: Photo Gallery
639: Photo Gallery
640: Home
641: Community Forums
642: Community Forums
643: News
644: Community Forums
645: Member Screenshots
646: Photo Gallery
647: Community Forums
648: Downloads
649: Photo Gallery
650: Photo Gallery
651: Community Forums
652: Community Forums
653: Photo Gallery
654: Photo Gallery
655: Home
656: Member Screenshots
657: Member Screenshots
658: Downloads
659: Photo Gallery
660: Home
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: Photo Gallery
664: News Archive
665: Community Forums
666: Community Forums
667: Photo Gallery
668: Community Forums
669: Community Forums
670: Community Forums
671: Community Forums
672: Your Account
673: Community Forums
674: Community Forums
675: Photo Gallery
676: Community Forums
677: Photo Gallery
678: Community Forums
679: Community Forums
680: Community Forums
681: Home
682: Photo Gallery
683: Photo Gallery
684: Member Screenshots
685: Member Screenshots
686: Photo Gallery
687: Community Forums
688: Home
689: Community Forums
690: Community Forums
691: Community Forums
692: Home
693: Search
694: Community Forums
695: Member Screenshots
696: Community Forums
697: Community Forums
698: Community Forums
699: Downloads
700: Photo Gallery
701: Community Forums
702: Statistics
703: Downloads
704: Home
705: Community Forums
706: Community Forums
707: Community Forums
708: Community Forums
709: Photo Gallery
710: Photo Gallery
711: Community Forums
712: Home
713: Community Forums
714: Community Forums
715: Community Forums
716: Community Forums
717: Photo Gallery
718: Photo Gallery
719: Photo Gallery
720: Community Forums
721: Photo Gallery
722: Community Forums
723: Home
724: Photo Gallery
725: Community Forums
726: Photo Gallery
727: Community Forums
728: Community Forums
729: Community Forums
730: Community Forums
731: Community Forums
732: Community Forums
733: Photo Gallery
734: Photo Gallery
735: Community Forums
736: Downloads
737: Downloads
738: Home
739: Community Forums
740: Photo Gallery
741: Community Forums
742: Community Forums
743: Home
744: Community Forums
745: Community Forums
746: Community Forums
747: Photo Gallery
748: Community Forums
749: Community Forums
750: Community Forums
751: Community Forums
752: Community Forums
753: Community Forums
754: Community Forums
755: Photo Gallery
756: Photo Gallery
757: Community Forums
758: Community Forums
759: Community Forums
760: Community Forums
761: Community Forums
762: Community Forums
763: Community Forums
764: Community Forums
765: Community Forums
766: Community Forums
767: Community Forums
768: News
769: Community Forums
770: Community Forums
771: Home
772: Downloads
773: Member Screenshots
774: Community Forums
775: Community Forums
776: Community Forums
777: Community Forums
778: Home
779: Member Screenshots
780: Community Forums
781: Community Forums
782: Community Forums
783: Photo Gallery
784: Community Forums
785: News
786: Home
787: News Archive
788: Community Forums
789: Statistics
790: Community Forums
791: Home
792: Community Forums
793: Home
794: Downloads
795: Community Forums
796: Home
797: Community Forums
798: Photo Gallery
799: Community Forums
800: Community Forums
801: Community Forums
802: Community Forums
803: Community Forums
804: Community Forums
805: Home
806: News Archive
807: Community Forums
808: News Archive
809: Community Forums
810: Home
811: Community Forums
812: Photo Gallery
813: News Archive
814: Member Screenshots
815: Community Forums
816: Community Forums
817: Photo Gallery
818: Member Screenshots
819: Home
820: Community Forums
821: Community Forums
822: Community Forums
823: Community Forums
824: Home
825: Member Screenshots
826: Photo Gallery
827: Member Screenshots
828: Community Forums
829: Your Account
830: Community Forums
831: Photo Gallery
832: Community Forums
833: Downloads
834: Community Forums
835: Member Screenshots
836: Your Account
837: Downloads
838: Community Forums
839: Home
840: Community Forums
841: Home
842: Community Forums
843: Community Forums
844: Community Forums
845: Photo Gallery
846: Community Forums
847: Downloads
848: Photo Gallery
849: Community Forums
850: Member Screenshots
851: Member Screenshots
852: Community Forums
853: Member Screenshots
854: Community Forums
855: Community Forums
856: Community Forums
857: Home
858: Home
859: Photo Gallery
860: Community Forums
861: Community Forums
862: Photo Gallery
863: Member Screenshots
864: Photo Gallery
865: Community Forums
866: Community Forums
867: Community Forums
868: Photo Gallery
869: Community Forums
870: Downloads
871: Community Forums
872: Photo Gallery
873: Community Forums
874: Member Screenshots
875: Community Forums
876: Community Forums
877: Downloads
878: Photo Gallery
879: Community Forums
880: Community Forums
881: Community Forums
882: Community Forums
883: Community Forums
884: Your Account
885: Community Forums
886: Community Forums
887: Community Forums
888: Home
889: Community Forums
890: Community Forums
891: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M113 #1?????
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:12 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

- bsmart
I'm gpoing to disagree with you here. "Quantity has a quality all it's own"

Within a class of weapons the ability to deploy enough items so that it is effective is important. The Sherman/T34 v Panther is a very good example of this. While neither one can match the Panther one on one they were able to compete because both could be produced in volume and deployed and supported so that they were always available in useful quantities while Panthers were never available in enough quantity to keep the units up to strength


The question is whether the qantity factor reflects qualities of the vehicle (ease of manufacture) or the production system building it. I'd guess that the US tank plants could build Panthers at about the same rate as they could build Shermans and vice-versa.

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:51 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

- clausb

The question is whether the qantity factor reflects qualities of the vehicle (ease of manufacture) or the production system building it. I'd guess that the US tank plants could build Panthers at about the same rate as they could build Shermans and vice-versa.

cbo


I'm not sure about that. From what I've read there were many parts of the panther that were desiigned to be 'massaged' into place. Also much of it was assembed as piecework.

The Sherman during it's development was worked over by automotive production engineers to tweak it for high volume series production. Everything from parts standardization to having a well developed 'Change Order' system for introducing changes to the production line had been well developed by the high volume production system used by the American automobile industry.

The big difference between the American and the European tank production was that The Americans decided that 35 ton tanks could be built on a true assembly line like passenger cars instead of by heavy engineering firms that were used to building locomotives and other heavy equipment.

It would have been interesting to see what a 'production engineered Panther' would have looked like after the American assembly line specialists had gotten done with it. It would also be interesting to see what a Panther fitted with some of the advanced features of the Sherman would have been (Like the constant speed hydraulic turret drive) but it would have been a much different beast that the standard Panther

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:18 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

- bsmart
I'm not sure about that. From what I've read there were many parts of the panther that were desiigned to be 'massaged' into place. Also much of it was assembed as piecework.

The Sherman during it's development was worked over by automotive production engineers to tweak it for high volume series production. Everything from parts standardization to having a well developed 'Change Order' system for introducing changes to the production line had been well developed by the high volume production system used by the American automobile industry.

The big difference between the American and the European tank production was that The Americans decided that 35 ton tanks could be built on a true assembly line like passenger cars instead of by heavy engineering firms that were used to building locomotives and other heavy equipment.


You could be right about the design not being as fit for massproduction as the Sherman, but it seems that it was a good deal better than for earlier German tanks (which may not say much Smile )

I think the bottom line is that the number and types of parts that goes into a WWII tank of a given size are about the same. It needs an engine, transmission, armoured hull etc. What really governs output is access to rawmaterials, machinery, manpower etc. And here Germany was lagging behind the US. Add to that the fact that US plants, transport, etc. wasn'øt bombed every other day. In the bigger picture, improving the design for production may make some gain, but it cannot do much to change the basic production system and its flaws.

It would have been interesting to see what a 'production engineered Panther' would have looked like after the American assembly line specialists had gotten done with it. It would also be interesting to see what a Panther fitted with some of the advanced features of the Sherman would have been (Like the constant speed hydraulic turret drive) but it would have been a much different beast that the standard Panther


I think one problem would be that the Germans did not have the materials needed to make some of the features of the Sherman. The Sherman turret traverse, for example, used an electric motor for power and that togetherwith the required wiring might not have fitted well with Germanys precarious raw material situation. The mechanical-hydraulic system used in the Panther and Tiger used only steel.

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
SHAWN
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:37 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

hello roy,
it may not seem like much, but much respect to you and doug for serving on/in the track. thank you. my dads war photos dont paint a nice combat picture of the track. i think there must be alot of comparisons of the M4 in WW2 to the M113 in Nam.
when i called it a frig, i mean cause it was made by FMC (Food Machinery Corp., they made refrigators){M2/M3 also made by FMC}. i work in an aluminum fab shop and i wouldnt place AL between myself and bullets no how (unless it is moved by pratt & whitney).
it justed seems that good praise and all, that the, say "bad" qualities as told by my dad, by roy, by doug, others combat vets, hang heavy over that track thus hindering it being that close to the top of the list. you had to sandbag the interior, you woudnt ride inside (let alone fight from inside it-- ifv??), you wouldnt hang your limps inside or outside of the thing, you pretty much just rode on top... (please, please forgive me, but this doesnt make me feel confident in this thing). all of the pics dad has from nam that show damaged tracks, it isnt like they were lost in a european armored conflict. (they were lost to some of the best light infantry the world has seen).
we took AL plate out to the range, it dont stop .308, .223, unless you stack it up pretty thick... we spaced it (hell, that made it worse). it melts much more so than steel...

the M2/M3 is AL with steel plates hanging all over it...
arent the improved armor upgrades for the current M113 basically along the same lines?
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:37 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

Hi Shawn! Hi Folks!

The following post is done in the spirt of showing those who may not know there is more to the story.
Before I started hanging out here, I have a VERY bad impression of the Sherman tank during it's use in NWE. Thanks to others who have pointed out facts I didn't think about before, I now feel that tank was the right vehicle, for the right time, and POSSIBLE the best that could be fielded at that time.

- SHAWN

my dads war photos dont paint a nice combat picture of the track.


How's this Shawn for a bad picture? All four of us survived hitting a large land mine. I think my right gunner died later of pneumonia in a hospital on Oklinawa. My right gunner/Platoon Leader was returned to the field after a check up and an overnight stay at the 93rd Evac Hospital, my driver returned to the field after a month of light duty. I returned to duty after three months of light duty.


There is more to the story than bad pictures. What counts (to me anyway) is the number of people who survived after their AFV has been hit by something. In the case of my first ACAV, most of that damage happiened AFTER we were able to get out of and off of it.

Look at a picture of an Iraqi T72 that has been burned out (like my 1st ACAV) with it's turret blown off. One has to ask, was the crew able to get out after the first hit and before the secondary fire set off the remaining main gun ammo? Both pictures show you a burn out and total destoryed AFV. However they do not tell the story of the crew. It's the crew that counts, not the vehicle and how well it does or does not survive a hit.

- SHAWN

when i called it a frig, i mean cause it was made by FMC (Food Machinery Corp., they made refrigators){M2/M3 also made by FMC}. i work in an aluminum fab shop and i wouldnt place AL between myself and bullets no how (unless it is moved by pratt & whitney).


Don't forget, FMC also made the LVTP7/AAV7. I have never heard the armored vehicle department of FMC call "Frig" before.
Anyway, I am sure that the AFV plant was not the same one that made refrigators.

- SHAWN

it justed seems that good praise and all, that the, say "bad" qualities as told by my dad, by roy, by doug, others combat vets, hang heavy over that track thus hindering it being that close to the top of the list.


Name something, anything that is prefect.

- SHAWN

you had to sandbag the interior,


Not very crew did that. You could if you wanted to but there was no unit SOP requiring it. Nether one of my two ACAVs where sandbaged. In the case of the first one, sandbags would NOT have helped due to the size of the mine. That is just like the Sherman crews of WWII who put sandbags on the outside of their tanks just because they thought and hoped it MIGHT help. I for one didn't care for the idea of dirt being driven into my skin by an explosion.

- SHAWN

you woudnt ride inside (let alone fight from inside it-- ifv??)


The driver rode inside. Sure some units modified the driving controls so the driver could set on top of his hatch and above the armor. During my 18 months with the Army, I never saw a M113 modified like that.

As for fighting inside, the M60 gunner's had to get inside to fire their guns.

The difference is what the vehicle is doing.
If moving, the main threat was land mines under the vehicle. (Name a IFV/APC that IS prof against landmines) Therefore the best protection was riding on top the vehicle with both the bottom armor and the top armor between you and that landmine. It's a good thing the M113 had a top that had room for the M60 gunners to ride on top.

When contact was made, the vehicles stopped, ending the threat of land mines. The M60 gunner's then dropped inside the hull to take cover behind the side armor to operate their weapons. The driver of my second AFV came up with an SOP. When he saw a 50 cal ammo fly over the front of the hull, he came up out of his compartment and started firing his M16 to the front of the vehcile. When he saw the lid of a 50 cal ammo can fly over the front of the vehicle, he dropped back down inside. What was that all about? I was reloading the M2. The crew firing weapons while inside the vehicle? Sounds like an IFV to me.

- SHAWN

you wouldnt hang your limps inside or outside of the thing, you pretty much just rode on top...


When the main threat is landmine under a vehicle, you don't hang limps off the side of ANY, let me say that again ANY, AFV. That is not a problem with the vehicle or it's armor, it a problem with the blast wave moving up the side of the AFV that set it off.


- SHAWN

(please, please forgive me, but this doesnt make me feel confident in this thing).


Having never been there, no problem. As one who has had an ACAV blown apart under me, I for one, think very highly of the M113 and the FMC plant that build them.

- SHAWN

all of the pics dad has from nam that show damaged tracks, it isnt like they were lost in a european armored conflict. (they were lost to some of the best light infantry the world has seen).


It was a very good vehicle for the time and the threat is faced. It was used many times to do things it was never build to do. One example, used as a recovery vehicle to tow combat loaded Sheridans, estimated weight 25 tons, using a trailier hitch mounted in an aluminum ramp that was only rated at 7.5 tons for towing. Towed a number of Sheridans, never broke the hitch or the ramp it was mounted in.

- SHAWN

we took AL plate out to the range, it dont stop .308, .223, unless you stack it up pretty thick... we spaced it (hell, that made it worse).


Was that aluminum plate from refrigerators? Or was it 5083 aluminum alloy rolled armored plate?

Get yourself a M113 and shoot at it with your .308 and .223. I think you will find it will stop those rounds because the protection level it was designed for is a bit higher that those rounds.

- SHAWN

it melts much more so than steel...


True. So what?
No body is going to stay inside a burning AFV if it is at all possble to get out. The melting happiens long after the crew is out or dead, so it's doesn't matter one way or the other. This is just another one of those 'IT'S BAD' claims that has no merit in the real world of crew survival.

- SHAWN

the M2/M3 is AL with steel plates hanging all over it...
arent the improved armor upgrades for the current M113 basically along the same lines


Yes, the Bradleys and the M113s (the few that are being used) have been upgraded with steel armor.

You are however forgetting the threats that the original designs were layed out for, the threats in Vietnam that most M113s faced, and the current threats the vehicles face today. They are not the same and upgrades that help protect the crews against the current types of threat have been added.

Shawn, you feel the M113 is not a good vehicle. OK what would you suggest the U.S. Army have used during Vietnam in place of the M113? Keep in mind that the Army had no plans to use the M113 in Vietnam to start with.

Maybe the Army could have used the USMC's LVTP5s. That was about the only other Infantry carrier in the inventory at that time and they were made out of steel and not aluminum armor. Asks Older Top, I am sure he can tell a bunch of good and possible even more bad stories about those steel boxes.

Again, I say, I might not rate it as the best IFV/APC ever, but it would be very close.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 2 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum