AFV garage sale

blair · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 87

Found a link to a interesting story here:
www.thelocal.de/10441/20080302/

Here's the article

For sale: Nazi German tanks

Published: 2 Mar 08 9:30 CET
Online: www.thelocal.de/10441/

Former Nazi ally Bulgaria plans to auction German tanks from the Second World War.

* German soldiers ate sausage made from their own blood (2 Mar 08)
* Treasure hunters halt search for Nazi loot (29 Feb 08)
* Neo-Nazi crime soars at Saxon schools (29 Feb 08)

Bulgaria is selling German tanks from World War II for about â‚¬100,000. This is the starting price, according to the Sunday edition of Bulgarian daily Trud in Sofia. The Bulgarian Defence Ministry plans to auction some 22 German Wehrmacht tanks and assault guns. The best-preserved pieces will be offered to museums before auctions begin.

Bulgaria was allied with Germany during the Second World War, and the German military sent the tanks to the country during that time. The Bulgarian army later used the same weapons to fight Nazi Germany until its surrender in May 1945. At the end of the 1950s, the tanks that werenâ€™t scrapped were cemented into a barrier to protect the formerly communist Eastern Bloc country on the Turkish border.

Now that both Bulgaria and Turkey are NATO members, the tanks are no longer necessary to protect the border.

In December 2007, Bulgarian authorities arrested two German nationals and a Bulgarian army officer who allegedly stole a German Wehrmacht tank and attempted to steal a second one near the southeastern town of Jambul in Bulgaria.

Rikard_Hufschmied · Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...pic&t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.

Roy_A_Lingle · Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

Hi Folks!

We can only hope that most will find good homes, be restored as best is possible, and placed on display for all to see.

Sgt, Scouts out!

clausb · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 25, 2006 Posts: 146

Rikard_Hufschmied wrote:

This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...amp;t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.

Any Jagdpanzer IV is rare, as there are only 6 of them left including this one. Another one is under a bridge in Poland (condition unknown?) and of the remaining 4, one is a pre-production vehicle (ex-Saumur, now Munster). The one in Thun is a late production item with 80mm front armour, so only 2 other early production vehicles with 60mm armour exists in Samur and Munster (belonging to WTS IIRC). The Bulgarian vehicle is earlier than both these and the only one with a drivers MG slot, in this case covered with a flat steel disc. This disc was only mounted in the period between the decision to drop the slot and the time the steel works began to make front hulls without it.

So it is a very rare vehicle with some unique features and probably no worse than the StuGs in Finland, which were, IIRC standard StuG III Gs. So if rarity is reflected in the price, this should be a good deal more expensive than the Finnish StuGs of which one went at 185.000 Euro.

As for the Panzer IVs, if they auction them all off at once, the best ones might get a good price but the rest.......... Like you, I doubt it.

cbo

the_shadock · Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

When Finland offered the 3 StuGs for sale, it didn't seem that others would be offered in the near future, that's why they were bought for these quite high prices. Now, at least 7 StuGs and 15 Pz IV are offered, so the rarity of the offer decrease and the starting price is, I think, too high. I think that some of them will not be sold. The big question is ; what will they do with them?

The other big question : what about the incomplete bottom hulls + Panzer IV with turret modified for an MG ? Will they be recovered too?

P-O

clausb · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 25, 2006 Posts: 146

What's the forums take on this one?

Not so evident in this shot, but judging from other shots of the same vehicle while still buried (in this thread: www.scalemodels-bg.com...start=285) suggest that it is one of the 142 StuG IIIs built on Panzer III Ausf. M hulls delivered from MIAG in 1943. It has the off-set splash guard in front of the drivers visor, Panzer III hatches and welded add-on armour.

I dont recall seeing any other surviving vehicles of this type?

EDIT: Possibly the StuG III G in Rena, Norway is of the same type?

cbo

bsmart · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

clausb wrote:

Rikard_Hufschmied wrote:

This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...amp;t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.

Any Jagdpanzer IV is rare, as there are only 6 of them left including this one. Another one is under a bridge in Poland (condition unknown?) and of the remaining 4, one is a pre-production vehicle (ex-Saumur, now Munster). The one in Thun is a late production item with 80mm front armour, so only 2 other early production vehicles with 60mm armour exists in Samur and Munster (belonging to WTS IIRC). The Bulgarian vehicle is earlier than both these and the only one with a drivers MG slot, in this case covered with a flat steel disc. This disc was only mounted in the period between the decision to drop the slot and the time the steel works began to make front hulls without it.

cbo

Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?

clausb · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 25, 2006 Posts: 146

bsmart wrote:

Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?

Aberdeen does not have a Jagdpanzer IV as far as I know. They do have a Panzer IV/70 V (i.e. a Jagdpanzer IV hull with the 7,5cm L/70 gun) which is a rare vehicle in its own right (5 remains?).

cbo

bsmart · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

clausb wrote:

bsmart wrote:

Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?

Aberdeen does not have a Jagdpanzer IV as far as I know. They do have a Panzer IV/70 V (i.e. a Jagdpanzer IV hull with the 7,5cm L/70 gun) which is a rare vehicle in its own right (5 remains?).

cbo

I had thought that the the L70 gun was just a variation of the JPz IV (much as the Pz 3 has shorter and longer 50mm guns in different versions)
Calling it a Panzer IV/70 implies to me that it is a turreted vehicle I always thought it was a Jagdpanzer IV/70

But Yes the one at Aberdeen has the L70 gun

clausb · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 25, 2006 Posts: 146

bsmart wrote:

I had thought that the the L70 gun was just a variation of the JPz IV (much as the Pz 3 has shorter and longer 50mm guns in different versions)
Calling it a Panzer IV/70 implies to me that it is a turreted vehicle I always thought it was a Jagdpanzer IV/70

I'm just calling it what the Germans were calling it Smile

I was under the impression that the designation "Panzer IV/70" was well established in the armour community? It is he name used in my old 1993 edition of Chamberlain & Doyles "Encyclopedia of German Tanks.."

cbo

the_shadock · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdpanzer_IV

Well, the designations can be discussed but I think that Wikipedia is a reliable source. Is it not? If not, I should maybe modify this document :

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Panzer_IV_variants.pdf

"Variants

* Jagdpanzer IV with 7.5 cm PaK 39 L/43: a small number of these were built as the preproduction series.
* Jagdpanzer IV with 7.5 cm PaK 39 L/48, official name SturmgeschÃ¼tz neuer Art mit 7.5 cm PaK L/48 auf Fahrgestell PzKpfw IV. Some 780 or so were produced in 1944.
* Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) (Sd.Kfz.162/1) was one of two variants armed with the PaK 42 L/70 gun. Some 940 were built in 1944 and 1945. The (V) stands for the builder, Vomag.
* Jagdpanzer IV/70 (A) (Sd.Kfz.162/1) was the other PaK 42 L/70 armed Jagdpanzer IV. This differed in that its superstructure was mounted directly on the original Panzer IV chassis and as such lacked the sharp edged nose of the other variants. Only 278 were built during 1944 and 1945. The (A) stands for the builder, Alkett."

the_shadock · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

By the way :

1 Jagdpanzer IV unknown model, under a bridge in Poland
5 Jagdpanzer IV L/48
6 Jagdpanzer IV L/70

clausb · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 25, 2006 Posts: 146

the_shadock wrote:

By the way :

1 Jagdpanzer IV unknown model, under a bridge in Poland
5 Jagdpanzer IV L/48
6 Jagdpanzer IV L/70

Well, if we are going to be anal about it Wink

1 Jagdpanzer IV or Panzer IV/70 unknown model
5 Jagdpanzer IV (Munster 0-serie, Munster, Saumur, Thun, Bulgaria)
5 Panzer IV/70 V (Sofia, Kubinka, APG, Ft. Knox, Ottawa)
1 Panzer IV/70 A (Saumur)

As for the name, people can call them what they want, I just use the designations I've come to know and use from the litterature I've read over the years Smile

The reality is that even the German army used different designations at different times during the life-cycle of a given vehicle, particularily when it came to anything StuG-like due to the on going struggle between the Generalinspectorate of Armoured Troops and that of the artillery over the right to control production, organisation etc. on this type of vehicle.

Hence, the Jagdpanzer IV was, at various times in its life:

Leichte PanzerjÃ¤ger (auf Fgst.Pz.Kpf.Wg. IV)
PanzerjÃ¤ger (auf Fahrgestell Panzer IV)
7,5cm Pz.JÃ¤g. 39 (L/48) IV
SturmgeschÃ¼tz neue Art
Leichte PanzerjÃ¤ger IV
...and finally in September 1944, just as production was running out, Jagdpanzer IV

There are a number of variants on those as well.

Spielberger lists about 15 different name variants for the Panzer IV/70 V, including:

SturmgeschÃ¼tz mit 7,5cm L/70
Panzer IV lang (V)
Leichte PanzerjÃ¤ger (Vomag) mit 7,5cm PaK 42
Panzer IV/70 V
...and even in one case, plainly "Jagdpanzer IV"

Similar stuff with the Panzer IV/70 A.

But neither is apparently refered to as "Jagdpanzer IV/70" by anyone at any time.

As for the Wiki article, it links to both Panzerworld and Achtung Panzer who both uses the Jagdpanzer IV - Panzer IV/70 designation. Why the author of the article chooses to elaborate on the cumbersome "official name" of "SturmgeschÃ¼tz neuer Art mit 7.5 cm PaK L/48 auf Fahrgestell PzKpfw IV" and then ignores the designations used by his own references is anybodys guess Smile

Whether you should change the names you use in your much appreciated documents about surviving tanks is none of my business, but it seems to me that any serious book about German armour is using Jagdpanzer IV for the short-gunned version and Panzer IV/70 for the two long-gunned versions (i.e. Spielberger, Chamberlain & Doyle, Jentz etc.)

cbo

the_shadock · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

Well,

I always had problems with official designations of such vehicles, and to be sincere, I use some designations which makes it clear which vehicle it is (for instance Jagdpanzer IV L/70 = a Jagdpanzer IV with a L/70 gun).
I try to refer as much as possible to Wikipedia, as it is a free and easy accessible encyclopedia. I don't have Panzer litterature at all. I decided to specialize not on tank designations and characteristics but on their location and status only.

As did Bob Smart, I'm quite perplex about a designation like "Panzer IV/70" which refers to a tank and not a tank destroyer for me. (and I think it is the same for the general public who has a minimal interest for German armour).

But I'm open to a discussion about the designation which should appear on my documents, and if I should replace the ones currently appearing by more accurate ones. Let me know.

Pierre-Olivier

bsmart · Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:43 am Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

The problem with Wikipedia is there is no editorial control or vetting of facts.

I'll defer to Chamberlain & Doyle. By the way I checked George Forty's German Tanks of World War Two which agrees with the name Panzer IV/70. I don't see an explanation as to why but Chamberlain says they were first issued to the 105th & 106th Independent panzer Brigades. I suspect it may have been a propaganda based decision to name it that, but it does appear that Panzer IV/70 was the name