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Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: Patton Museum Chieftain pics?

Don, or anyone else,
Do you have any good pics of the Patton Museum Chiefain - particularly of the front hull, hopefully where the VRN plate still is? There is some discussion on TankNet as to whether its a prototype, etc. Last I saw it was in the hanger-type building which I think has now been vacated...

These are the only pics I have, before I was tracking SNs, VRNs, etc - back during an infamous Memorial Day weekend trip

I know the Ordnance Museum got its Chieftain and a Leopard 1 prototype from the German BWB test organization. Interestingly, Knox also has a Leo 1 prototype...

Neil

TrevorLarkum · Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Patton Museum Chieftain pics?

- Neil_Baumgardner

I know the Ordnance Museum got its Chieftain and a Leopard 1 prototype from the German BWB test organization. Interestingly, Knox also has a Leo 1 prototype...

By a spooky coincidence the Leopard section from my original German tank books has just gone online if you're interested:

Preserved Leopard 1s

Doug_Kibbey · Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Patton Museum Chieftain pics?

- Neil_Baumgardner

These are the only pics I have, before I was tracking SNs, VRNs, etc - back during an infamous Memorial Day weekend trip

Neil

Very discrete, blurring that guy on the left of the vehicle...wouldn't want his image getting out in public domain where just anybode could make his ID. Wink

JimWeb · Last edited by JimWeb on Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

I think that Chieftain never actually got a VRN as it was one of two purchased for trials by the Germans direct from the manufacturers. The images I have show no VRN on the vehicles which seems to have been normal for the period as the M56 Scorpion, M113 C&R and XM765 they also purchased did not have VRNs either.

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Patton Museum Chieftain pics?

- TrevorLarkum

- Neil_Baumgardner

I know the Ordnance Museum got its Chieftain and a Leopard 1 prototype from the German BWB test organization. Interestingly, Knox also has a Leo 1 prototype...

By a spooky coincidence the Leopard section from my original German tank books has just gone online if you're interested:

Preserved Leopard 1s

I'll be bringing it up to date as soon as I can.

I did just notice that...

Here's the Ordnance Museum Leopard prototype - any identification would be most welcome.

More of the Knox Leopard

BTW, 09A003 is the MBT-70 that is at the Ordnance Museum - even though it has another RN painted on it. Incidentally you can also track MBT-70s by their SNs. The one at Aberdeen is No. 3. Its all in the USA AFV Register Wink

Neil

TrevorLarkum · Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: Patton Museum Chieftain pics?

Regarding the Chieftain, I haven't yet made the manuscript of Preserved Tanks in the USA online. However, here's a sneak peak at this Chieftain's entry:

Patton Chieftain

As with PGT2, I'll be bringing all my original data up to date as soon as I can.

Edit: I've just checked back and seen the stuff you've posted - I don't have time to take a look at it now (just off to bed!) but I'll have a look tomorrow and respond.

MarkHolloway · Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Patton Museum Chieftain pics?

Very discrete, blurring that guy on the left of the vehicle...wouldn't want his image getting out in public domain where just anybode could make his ID.

Not a blur. I thinks it's the ghost of AFV's past Wink

Neil_Baumgardner

Trevor,
How certain are you about that Knox Chieftain VRN? Its a real odd one for an early model... The MS series includes some Chieftain ARVs a lot of later model Chieftains - Chieftain Mk 5/5 (P) for Iran, Shir 2 / Khalid, Chieftain 900s, Chieftain Sabre - oh yeah and prototype Warrior. Seems to be about a decade off in terms of early Chieftain VRN assignments...

Known Chieftain prototypes are in the DA and DC series ranges. PP1 (Production Pilot 1) was in the DM range... I would normally at least expect an early Chieftain to be XXDXXX....

Then again, I guess MS makes sense since the MS series was specifically designated for overseas sales vehicles... Even so 65MS is a VRN after several later model Chieftains... <shrug>

BTW, yes, I am now tracking VRNs Wink

Neil

Dontos

Well,...no luck in my 'archive' on the Chieftain photos.

I did dig up some Centurion photos and some of the Challenger.

[img]

[/img]

[img]

[/img]

Not able to get anything, till Friday at the earliest, or early next week.

"I just living in a blur" Mr. Green

Don

TrevorLarkum

Neil, I visited Fort Knox in the 80s and spent about a week there. I got on well with the staff, and spent a lot of time going through their records, particularly for acquisitions (I've been lucky to do that at a few other collections too, like Bovington).

That number is therefore likely to have come from their paperwork, though I would have to check my notes to confirm its source (and they will likely remain boxed in the attic until I work on putting PTiUSA online).

- Neil_Baumgardner

Here's the Ordnance Museum Leopard prototype - any identification would be most welcome.

Group A, Series II.

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Patton Museum Chieftain pics?

Trevor,
Thanks. The VRN is a little odd, but I'm trusting it more since its in the same range as other overseas sales vehicles... It just appears they assigned other VRNs out of order (ie earlier in the sequence) later for some reason...

I take it may be able to find some sort of number on the Leo by checking the front right mud flap?

Neil

Dontos · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: Patton Museum Chieftain pics?

Neil

This is the LEO 1, in Richardson MP.

[img]

[/img]

Trevor
I was only aware of the Challenger being a prototype, of the British series. It is a runner, 'we' included in a demonstration / exhibit in 2003 & 2004.

The turret interior is 'gutted', which is how it arrived here.

Manual traverse is not for the timid, having traversed it 180 degrees, for the shows. (I'd rather manual crank-start, the panzer III before having to traverse the Challanger turret again.)

I can't remember too many details on the Chieftain. I don't think I've even been in her, in my time here. That is quite an unusual fact since I have made it a habit to 'check out' interiors, when the chance occurs.

TrevorLarkum · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Patton Museum Chieftain pics?

- Neil_Baumgardner

Trevor,
I take it may be able to find some sort of number on the Leo by checking the front right mud flap?

I have seen it there, but I didn't used to be as thorough with numbers in the past as I am now, so I don't have enough information on those Leopards to confirm there's a definitive system. Back then if a number came to me I recorded it, but I didn't go searching vehicles for one (which I do now).

TrevorLarkum · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Patton Museum Chieftain pics?

- Dontos

Trevor
I was only aware of the Challenger being a prototype, of the British series. It is a runner, 'we' included in a demonstration / exhibit in 2003 & 2004.

The turret interior is 'gutted', which is how it arrived here.

Manual traverse is not for the timid, having traversed it 180 degrees, for the shows. (I'd rather manual crank-start, the panzer III before having to traverse the Challanger turret again.)

I can't remember too many details on the Chieftain. I don't think I've even been in her, in my time here. That is quite an unusual fact since I have made it a habit to 'check out' interiors, when the chance occurs.

Thanks for that - I served on Challengers but did some time on Chieftains (e.g. in Canada) so I have a soft spot for both old girls.

QuickQuiz: which one is most comfortable for the crews, and why?

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Patton Museum Chieftain pics?

Yeah, I was aware of the Knox Challenger 1 (VC47) as well. It was "Special Project Vehicle" trials Challenger 1 - thats what the SP stands for.

But frankly its very confusing & hard to tell whats a late Chieftain mod vs a Shir 2 vs a Khalid vs a outright Challenger 1 prototype...

The first "Challenger 1" reference I have is 05SP04...

05SP50 was a Khalid

05SP52 is the Challenger 1 prototype (V3A2) on display outside Bovington

05SP53 to 57 were supposedly various Shir 2 / Khalids...

05SP68 is a Challenger 1 Mk 1 at Bovington

Then there's some Rapiers & Centurions mixed in for good measure...

Finally 06SP39, 40 and 41 are various Challenger 1s - the last one being VC47 at Fort Knox <shrug>

I wasnt aware of the Chieftain being special until just recently as well - although I'm not surprised...

Neil

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