±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 828
Total: 828
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Member Screenshots
02: Community Forums
03: Photo Gallery
04: Member Screenshots
05: Community Forums
06: Photo Gallery
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Community Forums
10: Photo Gallery
11: Member Screenshots
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: News
15: Member Screenshots
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Member Screenshots
25: Community Forums
26: Member Screenshots
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: News Archive
36: Community Forums
37: News
38: News Archive
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Photo Gallery
44: Member Screenshots
45: Community Forums
46: Photo Gallery
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Member Screenshots
50: Community Forums
51: Search
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Member Screenshots
57: Community Forums
58: Member Screenshots
59: Member Screenshots
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Photo Gallery
64: Photo Gallery
65: Member Screenshots
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Member Screenshots
73: Community Forums
74: Member Screenshots
75: Community Forums
76: Member Screenshots
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Member Screenshots
86: Member Screenshots
87: Community Forums
88: Statistics
89: News Archive
90: Community Forums
91: Member Screenshots
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Member Screenshots
95: Photo Gallery
96: Community Forums
97: Member Screenshots
98: Community Forums
99: News Archive
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Member Screenshots
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Home
113: Photo Gallery
114: Photo Gallery
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Home
118: Community Forums
119: Member Screenshots
120: Home
121: Your Account
122: Home
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Home
126: Community Forums
127: Member Screenshots
128: Home
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: News Archive
132: Photo Gallery
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Photo Gallery
136: Photo Gallery
137: Photo Gallery
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: News Archive
141: News Archive
142: Member Screenshots
143: Community Forums
144: Downloads
145: Community Forums
146: Member Screenshots
147: Home
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: News Archive
151: Home
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Home
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Home
159: Community Forums
160: Downloads
161: Downloads
162: Photo Gallery
163: Member Screenshots
164: Treasury
165: Member Screenshots
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Home
170: Home
171: Community Forums
172: Member Screenshots
173: Member Screenshots
174: Downloads
175: Member Screenshots
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Photo Gallery
179: Member Screenshots
180: News Archive
181: Community Forums
182: Home
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Home
186: Member Screenshots
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Photo Gallery
190: Community Forums
191: Home
192: Downloads
193: Community Forums
194: Photo Gallery
195: Member Screenshots
196: Photo Gallery
197: Member Screenshots
198: Community Forums
199: Downloads
200: Member Screenshots
201: Community Forums
202: Downloads
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Member Screenshots
207: Community Forums
208: Statistics
209: Community Forums
210: Photo Gallery
211: Member Screenshots
212: Photo Gallery
213: Member Screenshots
214: Downloads
215: Photo Gallery
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Photo Gallery
219: News Archive
220: Home
221: Photo Gallery
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Photo Gallery
226: Home
227: Downloads
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Downloads
231: News
232: Downloads
233: Member Screenshots
234: Member Screenshots
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Statistics
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Photo Gallery
242: Downloads
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Photo Gallery
247: Photo Gallery
248: Photo Gallery
249: Photo Gallery
250: Member Screenshots
251: LinkToUs
252: Home
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: News Archive
256: News
257: Home
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: News
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: News Archive
268: Community Forums
269: Home
270: Community Forums
271: Member Screenshots
272: Your Account
273: Photo Gallery
274: Home
275: Community Forums
276: Photo Gallery
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Home
282: Community Forums
283: Member Screenshots
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Home
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Home
291: Photo Gallery
292: Home
293: Member Screenshots
294: News
295: Community Forums
296: Downloads
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Statistics
300: Home
301: Downloads
302: Community Forums
303: Home
304: Community Forums
305: Home
306: News Archive
307: Downloads
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Photo Gallery
311: Photo Gallery
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Downloads
315: Photo Gallery
316: Community Forums
317: Downloads
318: Community Forums
319: Member Screenshots
320: Search
321: Home
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Supporters
326: Community Forums
327: Member Screenshots
328: Member Screenshots
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Member Screenshots
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Member Screenshots
339: Community Forums
340: Photo Gallery
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Member Screenshots
348: Member Screenshots
349: Home
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Member Screenshots
356: Community Forums
357: News Archive
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Home
364: Community Forums
365: Statistics
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Home
369: Member Screenshots
370: Photo Gallery
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Photo Gallery
376: Photo Gallery
377: Member Screenshots
378: Community Forums
379: Member Screenshots
380: Member Screenshots
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Statistics
384: Community Forums
385: Downloads
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: News Archive
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Photo Gallery
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: News Archive
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Photo Gallery
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: Your Account
405: Photo Gallery
406: Photo Gallery
407: Member Screenshots
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: News Archive
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Member Screenshots
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Member Screenshots
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Photo Gallery
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Photo Gallery
431: Member Screenshots
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Photo Gallery
437: Home
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: News Archive
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Member Screenshots
451: Community Forums
452: Member Screenshots
453: Home
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Member Screenshots
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Home
463: Community Forums
464: Member Screenshots
465: Community Forums
466: Photo Gallery
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Member Screenshots
471: Statistics
472: Tell a Friend
473: Community Forums
474: Photo Gallery
475: Photo Gallery
476: Community Forums
477: Home
478: Community Forums
479: Home
480: News Archive
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Member Screenshots
484: Community Forums
485: Home
486: Community Forums
487: News Archive
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Home
495: Community Forums
496: News Archive
497: Community Forums
498: News
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Downloads
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Member Screenshots
507: Member Screenshots
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Home
512: Photo Gallery
513: Community Forums
514: Home
515: Home
516: Home
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: News Archive
527: News Archive
528: Member Screenshots
529: Community Forums
530: News
531: Member Screenshots
532: Member Screenshots
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Photo Gallery
537: Community Forums
538: Photo Gallery
539: Member Screenshots
540: Member Screenshots
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Member Screenshots
547: Downloads
548: Home
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Member Screenshots
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Home
557: Community Forums
558: Member Screenshots
559: Downloads
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Photo Gallery
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Member Screenshots
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Member Screenshots
576: Community Forums
577: Downloads
578: Member Screenshots
579: Member Screenshots
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Member Screenshots
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Photo Gallery
588: Community Forums
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Member Screenshots
597: Community Forums
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Home
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Member Screenshots
610: Member Screenshots
611: Community Forums
612: Member Screenshots
613: Community Forums
614: Photo Gallery
615: Photo Gallery
616: News Archive
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Home
621: Your Account
622: Community Forums
623: Home
624: Statistics
625: Downloads
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Home
629: Community Forums
630: Downloads
631: Community Forums
632: Home
633: Member Screenshots
634: Community Forums
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Community Forums
638: Home
639: Downloads
640: Community Forums
641: Home
642: Community Forums
643: Home
644: Home
645: Community Forums
646: Community Forums
647: Member Screenshots
648: Community Forums
649: Member Screenshots
650: Community Forums
651: Community Forums
652: Member Screenshots
653: Downloads
654: Community Forums
655: Member Screenshots
656: Photo Gallery
657: Community Forums
658: News
659: Community Forums
660: Home
661: Community Forums
662: Member Screenshots
663: Home
664: Downloads
665: Home
666: Community Forums
667: Community Forums
668: Community Forums
669: Member Screenshots
670: Community Forums
671: Community Forums
672: Community Forums
673: Community Forums
674: Community Forums
675: Member Screenshots
676: Community Forums
677: Member Screenshots
678: Home
679: Community Forums
680: News Archive
681: Downloads
682: Community Forums
683: Your Account
684: Community Forums
685: Downloads
686: Community Forums
687: Community Forums
688: Community Forums
689: Member Screenshots
690: Community Forums
691: Your Account
692: Community Forums
693: Community Forums
694: Photo Gallery
695: Community Forums
696: Community Forums
697: Community Forums
698: Home
699: Downloads
700: Community Forums
701: Member Screenshots
702: Community Forums
703: Community Forums
704: Community Forums
705: Member Screenshots
706: Statistics
707: Member Screenshots
708: Community Forums
709: Member Screenshots
710: Community Forums
711: News
712: Community Forums
713: Downloads
714: Community Forums
715: Downloads
716: Photo Gallery
717: Community Forums
718: Home
719: Home
720: Community Forums
721: Community Forums
722: Member Screenshots
723: Home
724: Community Forums
725: Community Forums
726: Community Forums
727: Community Forums
728: Member Screenshots
729: Photo Gallery
730: Home
731: Community Forums
732: Photo Gallery
733: Community Forums
734: Photo Gallery
735: Community Forums
736: Community Forums
737: Community Forums
738: Community Forums
739: Member Screenshots
740: Community Forums
741: Home
742: Community Forums
743: Home
744: Community Forums
745: Community Forums
746: Member Screenshots
747: Photo Gallery
748: Home
749: Community Forums
750: Your Account
751: Community Forums
752: Community Forums
753: Photo Gallery
754: Photo Gallery
755: Community Forums
756: Community Forums
757: Community Forums
758: Community Forums
759: Home
760: Photo Gallery
761: Community Forums
762: Home
763: Community Forums
764: Community Forums
765: Home
766: Community Forums
767: Supporters
768: Member Screenshots
769: Community Forums
770: Community Forums
771: Community Forums
772: Community Forums
773: Community Forums
774: Home
775: Photo Gallery
776: Home
777: Community Forums
778: News Archive
779: Member Screenshots
780: Community Forums
781: News Archive
782: Community Forums
783: Community Forums
784: Community Forums
785: Home
786: Community Forums
787: Community Forums
788: Community Forums
789: Community Forums
790: Community Forums
791: Community Forums
792: Home
793: Community Forums
794: Community Forums
795: Member Screenshots
796: Photo Gallery
797: News Archive
798: Community Forums
799: Community Forums
800: Community Forums
801: Community Forums
802: Community Forums
803: Community Forums
804: Home
805: Community Forums
806: Downloads
807: Photo Gallery
808: Community Forums
809: Your Account
810: Community Forums
811: Member Screenshots
812: Statistics
813: Community Forums
814: News Archive
815: Downloads
816: Community Forums
817: Member Screenshots
818: Community Forums
819: Community Forums
820: Photo Gallery
821: Home
822: News Archive
823: Community Forums
824: Member Screenshots
825: Downloads
826: Community Forums
827: Community Forums
828: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:33 pm
Post subject: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

I was reading "Gli Autoveicoli da Combattimento dell'Esercito Italiano Volume Terzo (1945-1955)", by Pignato and Cappellano. Talking about the M10, they say none survived in Italy, but the one at APG was donated by the italian Army in the '60. Can anyone confirm this?

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:43 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

doen't remember speciffically what vehicles were involved, But Bob Smart has mentioned on his tours that some were returns from Italy, evident beacuse the barrels had been shortened to improve mobility in urban settings., So It's entirely possible. Hey Bob or Neil what's the 411?

_________________
The only good skwerril is a dead un
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:52 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

The shorter barrels sounds weird to me... Never heard of such a thing.

I know for sure quite a bunch of surviving M47s were returned to the USA. In Italy they were still in active service up to late '80 (a bunch went to Somalia too). But I am talking about something happened in the '60.

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:16 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

Yep, that's the story - at least what is claimed:



www.flickr.com/photos/...474291167/

According to the museum file it was acquired from the Italian Army in 1967.

The Ordnance Museum Guide CD says the following: "Used by US forces in Europe between 1944 and 1945. After the war, it was turned over to the Italian Army and used for several years. In 1967, the Italians donated this M10 to our museum where it remains today. The 3-inch gun on this, and other Italian M10s, were shortened by the Italian authorities and a counterweight collar was added to restore balance."

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:28 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

Thanks Neil. This confirm what Pignato/Cappellano say, but I never heard about shortened guns and the book doesn't mention this either.

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:52 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

I just checked a dozen or so pictures showing M10s in italian service, none of them had that collar/counter-weight...

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:59 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

A little further info from the draft of a 1990s museum guidebook project that was never published:

"This vehicle reflects modifications implemented by the Italian forces, most notably to the 3" gun barrel. According to sources, the Italians never liked the long 3" gun tube since many Italian streets are narrow and have difficult corners, making maneuvers with such a vehicle difficult. As a result, the Italian authorities responsible shortened the barrel tube appropriately and added the collar as a counterweight to compensate for the shortened tube."

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

This really doesn't makes that much sense, alongside the M10s there were many M4 Firefly in service, the 17pdr tube is even longer.

Pignato and Cappellano are the most respected authors in this field, think the italian equivalent of putting together Thomas Jentz and Steve Zaloga, and they don't mention this in a 500 pages book dedicated to AFVs in the Italian Army 1945-55.

I'll keep a mental note and try to investigate this. Thanks again.

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:33 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

I had always assumed the fitting was a bore evacuator, certainly the barrel doesn't seem any shorter to me, and that's what I wrote in my original manuscript about APG, now online (#103):

preservedtanks.com/Loc...0&Select=4

It's not unique, though. I first saw an M10 like that on the back cover of After The Battle magazine no. 18 from 1977 (I've just found it again). It was displayed at the Italian War Museum at Monte Lungo along with an M4A3 Sherman.

Of course, it's possible it could turn out to be the same vehicle, but from the photo's it looks unlikely.

Edit: Feeling lucky, I just had a trawl through the ferreamole website. Here's Monte Lungo:

digilander.libero.it/p...elungo.htm

plus I've found another one, less obvious, at Cassino:

digilander.libero.it/p...assino.htm

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:01 am
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

Here is a photo nearly identical in pose to the elungo picture listed above but taken from the other side of the vehicle. The collarless barrel appears about 15% to 20% longer to my eye


_________________
The only good skwerril is a dead un
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:24 am
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

This should make the comparison easier. I flipped and ghosted the elungo image over the other one and it appears there is a difference in length HTH


_________________
The only good skwerril is a dead un
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:43 am
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

When the M10 was sitting outside the warehouse at Aberdeen it was very near the M6 Heavy tank which also had a 3" gun. The gun on the M10 was noticeably shorter than the gun on the M6. The muzzle also appeared to have thicker tube walls which I attributed to having the barrel cut off further back from the muzzle (I never actually measured it) Yes I heard the same story about the Italians shortening the barrel but since my source is the same as the others that doesn't count as corroboration.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:01 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

Here's something to consider:

Italaeri (an Italian model company) issued a kit of a Sherman with a similar device on its barrel but placed further back such that it appeared as if there was a step in the tube. Eventually a tank matching the exact configuration of the model was found in Italy. It was also learned that the tube had been severed completely as a de-militarizing action and a sleeve welded over the joint to provide a cosmetic cover.

That would be my guess here as there is no way you can cut a gun tube and rejoin it such that it would be functional, let alone safe to use.

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:02 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

- piney
This should make the comparison easier. I flipped and ghosted the elungo image over the other one and it appears there is a difference in length HTH



Interesting - you may be right about the length, but it seems more obvious to me that if you have the photo's matched well the Monte Lungo barrel has a smaller calibre. That may be an optical illusion, though, as the APG one seems larger.


- Kurt_Laughlin
Italaeri (an Italian model company) issued a kit of a Sherman with a similar device on its barrel but placed further back such that it appeared as if there was a step in the tube. Eventually a tank matching the exact configuration of the model was found in Italy. It was also learned that the tube had been severed completely as a de-militarizing action and a sleeve welded over the joint to provide a cosmetic cover.


Kurt, are you thinking that on leaving service the Italian M10's had their barrels cut half way and the collar added? That could explain why they haven't been seen in service with the collar.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs


Last edited by TrevorLarkum on Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2067
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M10 at APG donated by the Italian Army?

My biggest issue with the "Cut tube to negotiate narrow streets" statement is that it doesn't pass the common sense rule. I remember a few years back commenting on the Aberdeen M10 and was told this explanation.

(Edit) Also, a much more practical counterbalance would be at the end of the tube, requiring less material and much less work to attach, early M3 Mediums come to mind (Edit)

Why do that with one particular type vehicle and not with all these offending long tubes.

I also have an issue with ballistics. You just don't lop off a given amount on the end and than expect it to perform the same way in regards to accuracy and velocity. Keeping in mind that they used ballistic reticles and had no real FCS, It still would require a new set of firing tables for each type of round fired and then modification of the sights. These tubes would be unique and would require some one to sit down and test fire, crunch the numbers, and then confirm the results. I doubt all this would be deemed practical just so you could operate a vehicle in narrow streets, something US forces did with the same TD's when operating in urban areas.

Kurt's explanation makes much more sense. Looking at Piney's photo comparison, keeping in mind it's not an exact comparison, the barrel thickness appears greater on the "cut" example. Being it is not that much shorter than the standard tube, I have to wonder if it even is the same type or just any old tube they found. One sure fire way to know if the tube was cut and then spliced is to scope the barrel. There would be an obvious seam/cut where the two were joined. That is if it isn't plugged at both ends. That would put an end to the argument.

_________________
Joe_D


Last edited by Joe_D on Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:56 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum