±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 546
Total: 546
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Community Forums
03: Home
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Home
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Home
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Member Screenshots
16: Home
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Downloads
21: Community Forums
22: Home
23: Member Screenshots
24: Downloads
25: Photo Gallery
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Member Screenshots
32: Community Forums
33: Statistics
34: Community Forums
35: Photo Gallery
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Member Screenshots
39: Photo Gallery
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Member Screenshots
43: Downloads
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: News Archive
51: Home
52: Your Account
53: Community Forums
54: Member Screenshots
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Member Screenshots
59: Community Forums
60: Home
61: Community Forums
62: Member Screenshots
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Member Screenshots
66: Member Screenshots
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Downloads
70: Community Forums
71: Home
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: News Archive
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Home
78: Downloads
79: Photo Gallery
80: Photo Gallery
81: Home
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Home
85: Photo Gallery
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Downloads
89: Photo Gallery
90: Member Screenshots
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Photo Gallery
96: Home
97: Member Screenshots
98: Community Forums
99: Statistics
100: Community Forums
101: Home
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Downloads
106: Home
107: Photo Gallery
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Home
111: Home
112: Community Forums
113: Home
114: Downloads
115: Community Forums
116: Home
117: Home
118: Photo Gallery
119: News Archive
120: Community Forums
121: Photo Gallery
122: Community Forums
123: Photo Gallery
124: News Archive
125: Community Forums
126: Home
127: Home
128: Home
129: News Archive
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Photo Gallery
135: Community Forums
136: Home
137: Home
138: Photo Gallery
139: Community Forums
140: Home
141: Community Forums
142: Photo Gallery
143: Downloads
144: Home
145: Home
146: Community Forums
147: Home
148: Community Forums
149: Photo Gallery
150: Photo Gallery
151: Home
152: Community Forums
153: Photo Gallery
154: Home
155: Home
156: Home
157: Community Forums
158: Photo Gallery
159: Community Forums
160: Home
161: Community Forums
162: Photo Gallery
163: Home
164: Photo Gallery
165: Member Screenshots
166: Community Forums
167: Photo Gallery
168: Home
169: Home
170: Member Screenshots
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Member Screenshots
174: Photo Gallery
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Photo Gallery
180: Community Forums
181: News Archive
182: Community Forums
183: Member Screenshots
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Photo Gallery
189: Home
190: Downloads
191: Home
192: Statistics
193: Home
194: Community Forums
195: Photo Gallery
196: Community Forums
197: Home
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Statistics
209: Photo Gallery
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Home
217: Statistics
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Home
221: Community Forums
222: Photo Gallery
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Photo Gallery
226: News Archive
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Home
230: Community Forums
231: Member Screenshots
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Member Screenshots
235: Community Forums
236: Home
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Home
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: News
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Home
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Home
252: Home
253: Photo Gallery
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Home
257: Home
258: Community Forums
259: Photo Gallery
260: Home
261: Contact
262: Community Forums
263: Photo Gallery
264: Member Screenshots
265: Community Forums
266: Member Screenshots
267: Home
268: Home
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Photo Gallery
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Member Screenshots
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Home
278: Downloads
279: Community Forums
280: Member Screenshots
281: Community Forums
282: Home
283: Downloads
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Your Account
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Home
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Member Screenshots
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Downloads
299: Community Forums
300: Home
301: Statistics
302: Home
303: Community Forums
304: Member Screenshots
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: News Archive
308: Downloads
309: Member Screenshots
310: Home
311: Home
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Member Screenshots
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Photo Gallery
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Home
325: Community Forums
326: Home
327: Home
328: Community Forums
329: Downloads
330: Community Forums
331: Photo Gallery
332: News Archive
333: Photo Gallery
334: Community Forums
335: Photo Gallery
336: Community Forums
337: Downloads
338: Community Forums
339: Home
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Home
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Statistics
347: Community Forums
348: Photo Gallery
349: Community Forums
350: Member Screenshots
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Home
355: Member Screenshots
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Home
360: Home
361: Downloads
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Member Screenshots
366: Community Forums
367: Photo Gallery
368: News
369: Photo Gallery
370: Photo Gallery
371: Community Forums
372: Home
373: Photo Gallery
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Home
379: Community Forums
380: Statistics
381: Home
382: Home
383: News Archive
384: Home
385: Member Screenshots
386: Community Forums
387: News Archive
388: Community Forums
389: Home
390: Community Forums
391: Home
392: Community Forums
393: Home
394: Home
395: Community Forums
396: Photo Gallery
397: Community Forums
398: Member Screenshots
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: Home
405: Community Forums
406: Home
407: Community Forums
408: Supporters
409: Home
410: Community Forums
411: Member Screenshots
412: Photo Gallery
413: Community Forums
414: Member Screenshots
415: Photo Gallery
416: Home
417: Home
418: Photo Gallery
419: Member Screenshots
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Home
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Photo Gallery
430: Statistics
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Home
437: Member Screenshots
438: Home
439: Home
440: Community Forums
441: Member Screenshots
442: News Archive
443: Photo Gallery
444: Home
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Home
451: Community Forums
452: Home
453: Community Forums
454: Downloads
455: Home
456: Member Screenshots
457: Community Forums
458: Photo Gallery
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Home
463: Home
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Home
467: Community Forums
468: Photo Gallery
469: Community Forums
470: Home
471: Member Screenshots
472: Community Forums
473: Home
474: News Archive
475: Photo Gallery
476: Community Forums
477: Member Screenshots
478: Photo Gallery
479: Home
480: Home
481: Home
482: Photo Gallery
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Member Screenshots
490: Community Forums
491: Photo Gallery
492: Home
493: Home
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Home
497: Photo Gallery
498: Community Forums
499: Home
500: Downloads
501: Member Screenshots
502: Photo Gallery
503: Community Forums
504: Home
505: Photo Gallery
506: Home
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Statistics
510: Home
511: Community Forums
512: Home
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Member Screenshots
518: Community Forums
519: Home
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Downloads
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Contact
528: Community Forums
529: Member Screenshots
530: Member Screenshots
531: Community Forums
532: Member Screenshots
533: Member Screenshots
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Home
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
The dilemma
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:37 am
Post subject: The dilemma

As you know, with the help of members of this forum, I have assembled a PDF file called "Surviving German captured and modified Vehicles".
http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Modified_Foreign_Vehicles.pdf
It includes the Marder series and German SPGs based on foreign chassis, but it also includes Czech tanks like the LT-35, LT-38 (PzKpfw. 38(t)), TNHs, LTPs and LTL-Hs.

This is an email from Massimo Foti, from which I wonder what should be done :

"Looking at the info we now have, I wonder if it would be better to move the TNHs, LTPs and LTL-Hs into a separated PDF. They look somewhat out of place among the "german" AFVs. There is also hope we may have misseed some tanks in Iran or Perú.

To say it all, while I consider PzKpfw. 38 (t) as german tanks, I have mixed feelings about PzKpfw. 35 (t).

I see a few options:

1) Move TNHs, LTPs and LTL-H into a "Surviving czech tanks" PDF
(which doesn't exist yet)

2) Move TNHs, LTPs and LTL-H into "Surviving neutral states tanks". But
that's already very large
http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Neutral_States_Tanks.pdf

3) Move swedish tanks into a dedicated PDF, and merge the czech ones with swiss and spanish"

Please help me to take a decision !! I will consider all points of view.

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
VonForhud
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 17, 2010
Posts: 162

PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:59 am
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

I would say make a PDF and call it "Surviving materiel used and modified by the Germans in WWII" or something similar.

Btw check out the latest info on the 105 mm auf Lorraine Schlepper in my Danish vehicles thread.

PS Keep up the good work.

_________________
hvasnakkerduom.blogspo...wagen.html
Back to top
View user's profile
bialy-r
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 06, 2009
Posts: 1233
Location: POLAND
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:25 pm
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

Create:

One big file with all neutral tanks from: Spain, Switzerland, Sweden and Czechoslovakia (today big files aren't a problem).

or

3 files:
-Spain, Switzerland
-Sweden
-Czechoslovakia
Back to top
View user's profile
bialy-r
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 06, 2009
Posts: 1233
Location: POLAND
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:48 pm
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

Don't forget about Škoda MU-4 in Lesany

picasaweb.google.com/p...5854090962

picasaweb.google.com/t...6764289522
Back to top
View user's profile
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:17 pm
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

P-O, in case it helps, my original Preserved German Tanks books included vehicles built on Czech chassis, such as the Hetzer, because I considered them 'German'. However, as I have expanded my coverage of preserved tanks, just as you are doing, I have changed my mind significantly and I will be doing this differently when I create the next edition. PGT will contain just German vehicles, and there will be a Preserved Czechoslovak Tanks book that will cover the LT vz 35 ('PzKpfw 35t'), TNH/LTL ('PzKpfw 38t') plus vehicles based on their chassis (such as Hetzer).

My view now - and this is just my opinion, I'm not trying to contradict you just putting it strongly to make my point clear - is that the LTL/LTH series is absolutely not a German tank in any respect. It has nothing in common with German designs or the German tank development story and was never produced in Germany. It was just a convenient design that was being manufactured in a country that was taken over so it was handy to keep producing them. The design was called PzKpfw 38(t) to the Germans (and the 't' is highly significant), but was used by many other countries largely unchanged, and they each gave it a different name. To me now, my preference is to consider Czechoslovak development independently of German development, and so the same design can be shown to have preserved examples used by Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, etc. under different names.

I am not actively working on PCT yet, but you can get a very early idea of what it will look like from how tanks already in the database are arranged:

Preserved Czechoslovak Tanks

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:52 am
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

today big files aren't a problem


No a problem in terms of bandwith, but they tend to be harder to read. Scrolling 40+ pages isn't that pleasant.

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:06 pm
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

The taxonomy is going to be arbitrary, no matter what...

I mostly agree with Trevor, but I still would classify the Hetzer as german,
the fact it doesn't have the (t) speaks about it. Just my personal feeling.

The Nahkampfkanone I is another weird case, it was build for sure in Switzerland, but it's not clear (at least not to me) if it was build on an existing Pz 39 chassis, or created out of existing spares. It has a swiss engine and a french gun.

@Rafal, you are right, we should not forget the MU-4

Just to make things more complicated. The Semovente M 42 da 75/18 in Rimini is another edge case, it wasn't captured, it was manufactured for the germans, including some minor changes compared to the italian vehicles (see the drive sprocket). But I consider it along the same line as PzKpfw 38

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:25 pm
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

- Massimo_Foti
The taxonomy is going to be arbitrary, no matter what...


that's probably what is called an "editorial line".

- Massimo_Foti
I mostly agree with Trevor, but I still would classify the Hetzer as german,
the fact it doesn't have the (t) speaks about it. Just my personal feeling.


I totally agree with you Massimo. It is the same for some of the Swedish AFVs built on a Czech chassis. The Stridsvagn m/41, Sav m/42 or PBV 301 could be considered as Czech vehicles, since the chassis is the exact copy of the LT-38 (or am I wrong?). These IMO should considered as Swedish vehicles.

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:13 pm
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

- Massimo_Foti
I mostly agree with Trevor, but I still would classify the Hetzer as german, the fact it doesn't have the (t) speaks about it. Just my personal feeling.


the official name of the Hetzer is "Jagdpanzer 38(t)".. it still has the (t).

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:35 pm
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

I've said my piece, so I won't go on about it much more - but myself I now see vehicles like the PBV301 or NK I as part of the Czech story, developments of a Czech chassis by foreign users. To me it's no different to the PzKpfw38(t) or Panzerwagen 39 - they are Czech vehicles operated by foreign users. Even the tanks have some modifications by the using country, it is just a larger and more obvious modification in the case of the PBV301 or NK I. To me it's the same as covering the Panzer 55/57 or Stridsvagn 101 as part of the Centurion development story.

Personally, in fact, I go further - I don't even consider the country of manufacture as crucial, only the country of design. In my system the T-34-85 is classified as a Soviet design even though it may be manufactured in Poland or Czechoslovakia, though it will have a sub-classification (something like 'Soviet / Polish'). Further, the Type 59 and Type 69 are classified in a similar way (e.g. Soviet / Chinese) since the design is the essentially the same.

I'll end here. But if it helps, I've found my philosophy and argument can actually be summarised quite succinctly in most cases: "Look at the wheels". All those vehicles on my Preserved Czech Tanks page clearly stem from two Czech designs, though they were used/modified by Hungarians, Swiss, Swedes, etc. I think most of us can look at rare or unusual vehicles, used or created by any number of different countries, and spot that superlative and distinctive CKD suspension from a mile away. To me it is core to the Czech tank development story.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:06 pm
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

- Massimo_Foti

I mostly agree with Trevor, but I still would classify the Hetzer as german


I have sympathy with this view - as I said, the original Preserved German Tanks has a large chapter on the Hetzer. However, I would now say it's Czech - it was designed by CKD and based on their existing highly successful chassis (I suspect it was actually designed by the same man or at least the same team, though I have been unable to confirm this) and built on the same production line in Czechoslovakia. After the war it was used by the Czech army. To me, it's use by Germany during the war - notwithstanding it incorporated a German gun - was essentially the same process as Switzerland using it after the war, they both incorporated in their armies Czech vehicles with customisations.

I was going to stop before this, but it has become an interesting argument - like the old discussions referred to in other threads. Perhaps I should quit, though, before I cause trouble, e.g. by pointing out that in my system the Grizzly is part of the Sherman story (i.e. it's in Preserved American Tanks), and the M1917 is part of the Renault FT story (i.e. it's in Preserved French Tanks). Smile

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:33 pm
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

well, finally I decided to choose a "hybrid" option.

The original "German vehicles based on modified foreign chassis", included the LT-35 and LT-38 (PzKpfw 38 (t)) variants, the SPGs based on French chassis (Lorraine, Hotchkiss) and LT-38 chassis

It was split into :

Czech LT vz. 35 and LT vz. 38 (TNH, LTP, LTH, PzKpfw. 38 (t))

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_LT35_LT38.pdf

and German Self-propelled Guns based on modified foreign chassis : 10.5 cm leFH 18(Sf) auf Geschützwagen, 15cm sFH 13/1(Sf) auf Geschützwagen, Marder I, Panzerjäger I, Marder III, Grille, Munitionspanzer 38 (t)

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Modified_Foreign_Vehicles.pdf

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:54 am
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

I have sympathy with this view - as I said, the original Preserved German Tanks has a large chapter on the Hetzer. However, I would now say it's Czech - it was designed by CKD and based on their existing highly successful chassis (I suspect it was actually designed by the same man or at least the same team, though I have been unable to confirm this) and built on the same production line in Czechoslovakia.


The main designer at CKD was the engineer Alexander Surin, emigrated from Russia, where it was part of the General Wrangel's army.

A very interesting book on the subject:
www.mbi.wz.cz/nab/2/ramecnab.htm

Review here:
www.missing-lynx.com/r...bihetz.htm

More in general, all MBI's books on tanks are a great:
www.mbi.wz.cz/

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
bialy-r
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 06, 2009
Posts: 1233
Location: POLAND
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:41 pm
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

New LTP in Peru:
modelforum.cz/viewtopi...25#p765825

video:
www.ct24.cz/domaci/816...nk-z-peru/

There is a project to bring this tank to Czech Republick
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:25 pm
Post subject: Re: The dilemma

- bialy-r
New LTP in Peru:

There is a project to bring this tank to Czech Republick


do you think that Peru will let this tank leave and go back to CZ ?

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum