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piney · Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Wrecks and relics in the USA

Quick update the above directions should say right side not left. Thats why I always let others navigate. If you want to mapquest or Yahoo map it the address is Ricky's Army & Navy Store, 2925 U S Highway No. 130 S, Delran , NJ 08075

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Wrecks and relics in the USA

I'll bet its listed in Rob Griffin's book, I'll have to look it up tonight.

Neil

piney · Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Wrecks and relics in the USA

Hi Neil and Bob

It is in Urban camoflage. quite the eye catcher I thought that it was a figment of the owner's imagination until I saw a thread either here or on the old DG regarding Berlin Brigade markings. Not an expert on mark #'s on Chieftans so can't help there. it is on the left side of Rt. 130 ( a divided highway) if you are traveling from say Delran in the derection of Pennsauken. you can't miss it but it comes up on you fast. HTH

Jeff Lewis

bsmart · Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Wrecks and relics in the USA

- piney

add to the list a Berlin brigade Chieftan that resides on rt. 130 in Cinnaminson , NJ in front of an Army surplus store but appears to be in excellent conditon

Jeff Lewis

Dammit!! Now you gave me a reason to visit my sister-in-law in Delran, NJ.

No, I've got it I drop my wife off to visit her sister and say 'Honey, there's a tank I need to check out'

That's it

L.Delsing · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Feb 10, 2006 Posts: 960

Hello all,
Whow, that is a lot of info, corrections and additions! Next thursday I have a day off and I will go through all the messages and correct my list and try to anwer the questions.

Since I have never been to the USA for tankhunting (only aircraft spotting) all the info I have is from magazines, internet and a lot from the site ''tanks from the memories by pulaski and xxxx(?)'' which was a sort of geocaching tanks. But this last site I can not find anymore.

When interested in other countries, well you know the rest

I will come back!!!
Regards,
Lesley

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Wrecks and relics in the USA

- piney

add to the list a Berlin brigade Chieftan that resides on rt. 130 in Cinnaminson , NJ in front of an Army surplus store but appears to be in excellent conditon

Jeff Lewis

Wow, that sounds pretty neat... Is it Berlin Brigade urban camo? Any idea what Mk it is?

Neil

piney · Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Wrecks and relics in the USA

add to the list a Berlin brigade Chieftan that resides on rt. 130 in Cinnaminson , NJ in front of an Army surplus store but appears to be in excellent conditon

Jeff Lewis

bsmart · Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Wrecks and relics in the USA

- Neil_Baumgardner

- bsmart

Also what is
" the CFE description of a main battle tank"

That doesn't ring a bell with me. Also would it exclude the Italian M13/40, Japanese Chi-Ha, or British Matilda? There is also a Churchill at Aberdeen and several tanks from the pre WWII era that were MBTs in their time.

CFE is the "Conventional Forces in Europe" treaty. It defines a "battle tank" (not necessarily a main battle tank) as:

"a self-propelled armoured fighting vehicle, capable of heavy firepower, primarily of a high muzzle velocity direct fire main gun necessary to engage armoured and other targets, with high cross-country mobility, with a high level of self-protection, and which is not designed and equipped primarily to transport combat troops. Such armoured vehicles serve as the principal weapon system of ground-force tank and other armoured formations. Battle tanks are tracked armoured fighting vehicles which weigh at least 16.5 metric tonnes unladen weight and which are armed with a 360-degree traverse gun of at least 75 millimeters calibre. In addition, any wheeled armoured fighting vehicles entering into service which meet all the other criteria stated above shall also be deemed battle tanks."

Yes, that excludes a lot of WWII and prior tanks. Oops, I guess the 360 degree traverse excludes the M3... IMO, its kind of arbitrary to include some WWII tanks but not all...

www.state.gov/t/ac/trt/4781.htm

Neil

Hey 'High Cross Country Mobility' might exclude the King Tiger Smile

I also notice it would exclude the S tank. I have always considered the S Tank a Tank destroyer not a tank but it has been generally refered to as a tank by sources that are generally accurate (I'm not talking about the main stream media where anything that has tracks and isn't Big and Yellow with CAT on the side is a tank) So I'm somewhat surprised about that loophole (of course in a NATO-Warsaw Pact treaty they may have felt they could ignore the Swedes. I on the otherhand would have been worried about some one dusting off a bunch of SU-100s, or even coming up with a new SU-125 to get around the treaty; but I'm a devious, don't trust the other guy any further that I can throw him kind of guy. I also may plan to build my own JagdLeopard with a 130mm or 140mm gun :-))

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Wrecks and relics in the USA

- bsmart

2) The Experimental HVSS Sherman is an M4A4 (longer hull)

Ah, right... However we seem to have a duplication here, the M4A4 experimental HVSS has RN 16917...

- L.Delsing

Army base - Ordnance museum
M4 Sherman USA 16917 pre aug05
M4A1 Sherman FRA std, ex Mannheim (DEU)? dec05
M4A2 Sherman USA std jul05
M4A4 Sherman USA pre Ã¢â‚¬Ëœ03

Neil

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Wrecks and relics in the USA

- bsmart

Also what is
" the CFE description of a main battle tank"

That doesn't ring a bell with me. Also would it exclude the Italian M13/40, Japanese Chi-Ha, or British Matilda? There is also a Churchill at Aberdeen and several tanks from the pre WWII era that were MBTs in their time.

CFE is the "Conventional Forces in Europe" treaty. It defines a "battle tank" (not necessarily a main battle tank) as:

"a self-propelled armoured fighting vehicle, capable of heavy firepower, primarily of a high muzzle velocity direct fire main gun necessary to engage armoured and other targets, with high cross-country mobility, with a high level of self-protection, and which is not designed and equipped primarily to transport combat troops. Such armoured vehicles serve as the principal weapon system of ground-force tank and other armoured formations. Battle tanks are tracked armoured fighting vehicles which weigh at least 16.5 metric tonnes unladen weight and which are armed with a 360-degree traverse gun of at least 75 millimeters calibre. In addition, any wheeled armoured fighting vehicles entering into service which meet all the other criteria stated above shall also be deemed battle tanks."

Yes, that excludes a lot of WWII and prior tanks. Oops, I guess the 360 degree traverse excludes the M3... IMO, its kind of arbitrary to include some WWII tanks but not all...

www.state.gov/t/ac/trt/4781.htm

Neil

toadmanstankpictures · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 704

In Redwood City, CA there is a M5 Stuart in one of the city parks. It's been there since the early 1950's if not earlier.

In Salinas, CA, there's a M5A1 Stuart set up as a memorial.

In San Rafael, CA there are two M60A1 RISE Passive, one M47, two M41A?, one M4A2(76)HVSS coverted to an A3, M24 Chaffee, M3A1 Stuart, and M5A1 Stuart.

Also, try this link: www.geocaching.com/see...e6cedf1f33 for more vehicles and their locations.

bsmart · Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 1:52 am Post subject: Re: Wrecks and relics in the USA

I was going to quote Neils response but it got to complicated

So
1) Where did the Leo serial info come from?
I think the serial information came from me from numbers found stamped in the hull and possibly from the folder. It was in a message on the old board I think about a year ago

2) The Experimental HVSS Sherman is an M4A4 (longer hull)

3) Pz IVs There are 3 at The musuem. The Short barrel one on the mile of tanks, the Experimental transmission, and a Long Barrel (IVF2?) down at the far end of the second row ( Usually the last tanks I do on my tour Smile

Also why didn't you include PZ IIIs? They were MBTs as much or more so than M-24 or M-41? There are two at Aberdeen.

Did the M60A2 at Aberdeen get listed?

In the town of Aberdeen I don't know of an M-60. The VFW has an M48(A3?) Diesel anyway. Did you list the straight M48 at Aberdeen? (no cupola)

I'll have to look at the list closer when I get a chance

Also what is
" the CFE description of a main battle tank"

That doesn't ring a bell with me. Also would it exclude the Italian M13/40, Japanese Chi-Ha, or British Matilda? There is also a Churchill at Aberdeen and several tanks from the pre WWII era that were MBTs in their time.

Also what is meant by the date 'pre Jan 03, Dec 04, etc?

Newark Delaware - The first Chrysler proiduced M-3! ( Serial numebr 3? I would have to check my records)

And it is Hubbard Ohio not Hubbart.

There are a few on that list I need to track down (Like Chambersburg PA, that is almost local!)

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:34 am Post subject: Re: Wrecks and relics in the USA

- L.Delsing

MILITARY VEHICLE MUSEUM, VIRGINIA
The VMMV is located at the "tank farm", a grass airstrip and several adjoining properties located in Prince William County in northern Virginia. Here the vehicles are restored and maintained for the collection.

Some edits & additions:

Churchill Mk VII Crocodile GBR std Jun05
Centurion mk.7 CHE Ã¢â‚¬Â¦899 pre Jun05
Centurion mk.13 GBR pre Jun05
M3 Grant GBR pre Jun05
M3A4 Lee USA std Jun05
M4A1 Sherman USA pre Jun05
M4A3 Sherman USA pre Jun05
M24 Chaffee USA pre Jun05
M41 W.Bulldog USA pre Jun05
M50 ISherman ISR std Jun05
RDF Light Tank USA pre Jun05
Panzer 61 CHE Jun05
S-103c SWE pre Jun05
T-34/85 pre Jun05
T-34/85 pre Jun05
T-55 CZA Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ pre Jun05
T-55AM2 DDR? pre Jun05
T-72 DDR? pre Jun05
PT-76 SOV? pre Jun05

Neil

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:20 am Post subject: Re: Wrecks and relics in the USA

- L.Delsing

FORT McCOY, WISCONSIN
Army base: commemorative area, the M1 is a 105mm model
M1 Abrams USA pre jul05
M4A3 Sherman USA 67593 pre jul05
T95 USA pre jul05

There is also:

M551 Sheridan USA pre jul05

Range
M551 Sheridan USA std jul05

Also, there's

FORT SNELLING, MINNESOTA
Military Museum
M4A1E8 Sherman USA pre aug05
M4A2 Sherman USA std aug05
M4A2 Sherman USA pre aug05
M26 Pershing FRA? std aug05
M47 Patton USA pre aug05
M48 Patton USA pre aug05
M60 USA pre aug05
M60A1 USA pre aug05
M551 Sheridan USA std aug05

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:12 am Post subject: Re: Wrecks and relics in the USA

- L.Delsing

FORT JACKSON, SOUTH CAROLINA

Army base museum
M4A3E8 Sherman USA pre 05
M26 Pershing USA 852 pre 05
T30 USA pre 05

Neil

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