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clausb · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 25, 2006 Posts: 146

- Doug_Kibbey

One might do well to remember that there were lots of weapons on the battlefield apart from 88's & Panzerschreks. Anything that reduces vulnerability to the totality of threats being faced is worth considering. Tankers are funny that way.

..or anything that is percieved to reduce vulnerability, i.e. the mental aspect that vonforhud was referring to.

One thing is the advantage in protection from something like sandbags vs the overall reduction in performance of the tank or tank formation. The latter is perhaps somewhat academic for the crew that sits in the vehicle!

But modification that the crew thinks will improve protection may not actually do so. At one point, the German Army issued a ban on such modifacations because welding things to the main armour actually reduced the protective qualities of the armour plate - unless it was done properly. Also, if you look at old tank wrecks, it is obvious that things tended to bounce off smooth plates but would get caught in varous bumps and thus find their way through the main armour where it would otherwise have bounced off. So welding track to your main armour might result in guiding the incomming projectile on its way into your now weakened armour plate.

vw82 · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Aug 28, 2012 Posts: 46

Extra armour (sandbags, tree logs, metal plate)...If I remember Patton was against all this as he wanted his tanks to move fast & fight and not breakdown due to the extra weight.

VonForhud · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Mar 17, 2010 Posts: 162

True Doug!

The muzzle velocity on the 75 KwK L70 was higher than the 88 and at the time this HVSS was in Europe I think most of the small calibre guns were off the battlefield.

I saw a picture of a Sherman with a plate from a stove welded to the superstructure. Anything helps.

Doug_Kibbey

- VonForhud

Why would you put yellow sandbags on a vehicle that is olive drab? Only makes it more visible and offers no protection Imho.

An 88 shell or a Panzerschreck would go through a Sherman 7 days a week sandbag or no sandbag.

One might do well to remember that there were lots of weapons on the battlefield apart from 88's & Panzerschreks. Anything that reduces vulnerability to the totality of threats being faced is worth considering. Tankers are funny that way.

VonForhud · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Mar 17, 2010 Posts: 162

Ah so the wet sandbags could help put out the fire, which 70% of Shermans broke into when hit :). Now it makes sense.

Fun aside I think it is a mental factor as well. "we have more protection now".

clausb · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 25, 2006 Posts: 146

- VonForhud

Why would you put yellow sandbags on a vehicle that is olive drab? Only makes it more visible and offers no protection Imho.

An 88 shell or a Panzerschreck would go through a Sherman 7 days a week sandbag or no sandbag.

...because sandbags come in that natural, brown-yellow colour and are a bitch to paint..? Smile

As I understand it, sandbags would likely work against WWII HEAT rounds by

- adding some distance between the HEAT round and the main armour, though probably not enough to defeat a large Panzerfaust round or Panzerschreck
- by being relatively soft and flexible. WWII HEAT seems to have been easily defeated by various movable or flimsy parts on the target like roadwheels, exhaustmufflers etc.

In any case, it would be a one-shot protection, as the blast from the HEAT round would remove the sandbags.

As for kinetic penetrators like an 88mm APCBC/HE round - probably not much effect unless the sandbag could somehow trigger the fuze and make the round detonate prematurely.

On the other hand, a fully sandbagged Sherman would have 2-3 tons added to its weight, probably even more in wet weather when the sandbags became waterlogged. That likely had a detremental effect on performance and realiability.

armyjunk2 · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Sep 22, 2006 Posts: 1416

Non Fat early Elvis, Fort Knox Library had several of these pics ........I wonder why these pics come out so big.

VonForhud · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Mar 17, 2010 Posts: 162

Why would you put yellow sandbags on a vehicle that is olive drab? Only makes it more visible and offers no protection Imho.

An 88 shell or a Panzerschreck would go through a Sherman 7 days a week sandbag or no sandbag.

bsmart

Can anyone imagine stacking that many ammo cans that neatly to get up to a tanks gun barrel? And can anyone imagine the stack being stable? I've used 20mm Ammo cans (much larger) as a work bench, saw horse, etc ant they aren't stable enough that I would stack them 4 or 5 cans high without using rope or tiedown straps around the perimeterto bind them together.

Massimo_Foti

M4A3E8 "Fury" by Massimo Foti, on Flickr

Massimo_Foti

Fury at Bovington:
www.tankmuseum.org/ixb...xhibitions

Doug_Kibbey

- C_Sherman

Excellent movie, as long as you don't expect a documentary about tank tactics and operations. Which would be unreasonable to expect from a Hollywood movie anyway. If you want to see how tank crews really act around each other, and explore the bonds between each other and with their tank, then it's an outstanding and gripping movie. I recommend it, and also put it on my list of top 4 war movies!

...and the frictions. Both are always present in an environment where you can never really escape each other. This is rarely captured well in cinema, but this is an exception.

Costas_TT · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Feb 15, 2012 Posts: 387

Just came out of the theater. Just like it was already said here, it was no documentary, but a damn good film.

vagabond

The latest issue of Classic Military Vehicles (Dec 2014) has a big spread on the film. Lots of photos and interesting info on the making of the film.

C_Sherman · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 590

Excellent movie, as long as you don't expect a documentary about tank tactics and operations. Which would be unreasonable to expect from a Hollywood movie anyway. If you want to see how tank crews really act around each other, and explore the bonds between each other and with their tank, then it's an outstanding and gripping movie. I recommend it, and also put it on my list of top 4 war movies!

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