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Preserved Tanks in Italy
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Costas_TT
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Italy

Still, it's useful for a discussion of its unique features.

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Italy

- Costas_TT
Really? Because I can't remember where I found it online.


Could be a copy I posted here time ago. I removed it pretty soon, because I don't like to post book's scans. But once it's online...

Massimo
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Costas_TT
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Italy

Really? Because I can't remember where I found it online. I even used the Google search by image feature, but to no avail. I guess they decided to convert a tank they didn't need rather than waste a perfectly serviceable Priest.
By the way, I looked into my books. The 105/22 fitted to the Sextons does indeed seem to be the M4 (the same as in the 105mm Shermans, M37 and M45) howitzer. The breech is identical. The muzzle brake must be an Italian addition.

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Italy

I think it's one of the pictures from Castellano's book.
Good points on the Firefly's features.

Massimo
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Costas_TT
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Italy

- Massimo_Foti
Once I will be back home I'll check this book:
www.libreriamilitare.c...mp;id_cat=

Among other things it covers the italian Priest that were converted into command vehicles. Pictures of them are very hard to find, I remember we talk about them in the past here.

Massimo


I have this picture in my files. Although it has the Priest MG pulpit mount, note the added armor on the hull, the plug where the hull MG position used to be, the slope of the hull front and the location of the headlights, plus the remnants of the drivers' cowls, indicating that this vehicle used to be a Sherman Firefly before being converted to an artillery command vehicle.

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Italy

I can't see the pictures on HMVF. Thanks anyway.

Again, I would be surprised if any Skoda gun was mounted on a Sexton.
Skoda's barrels weren't swapped on towed 25 pdrs either, see my previous posts.

Massimo
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Pzkpfw-e
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Italy

Got my facts mixed up!
Not rebored, but barrels swapped for 105mm & Skodas too.
One of these hybrids noted as being for sale on this thread from the HMVF.
hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/sho...ight=italy
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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Italy

Once I will be back home I'll check this book:
www.libreriamilitare.c...85&id_cat=

Among other things it covers the italian Priest that were converted into command vehicles. Pictures of them are very hard to find, I remember we talk about them in the past here.

Massimo
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Costas_TT
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Italy

Again, the Sexton armament replacement thing led me astray. Thanks for the correction, Massimo.

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Italy

- Costas_TT
Hmm... I apparently got carried away by the fact that both the Sexton and the towed gun originally were 25-pdrs.


I don't want to sound nit picky, but the 14/61 towed guns weren't 25 pdrs, they were Skoda guns. They may resemble a 25 pdr since they reused the same circular plate on top of a single trail, in an age when split trails were the standard, but that's the only relationship.

Massimo
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Costas_TT
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Italy

Hmm... I apparently got carried away by the fact that both the Sexton and the towed gun originally were 25-pdrs. Looking carefully at the breech pictures of the 105/22 Sexton, I guess the gun is the US made 105mm howitzer M4, so I'll have to agree with Massimo.

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:43 am
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Italy

The carriage and recoil is from Skoda, only the rotating platform is from 25pdr. Below I am copying something I've post on the artillery forum years ago:

It's name is 105/22 mod 1961 and it has a very long and interesting story.

During the WW I the austro-hungarians used a 10 cm M14 howitzer. After the war the italians captured many of them and used as 100/17 mod 1914 up to the WW II and even later.

Immediately after WW I, Skoda kept producing artillery pieces and evolved the design into a 100/22, the vz19 you can see in Brussels. At that time the austro-hungarian empire was already gone, so it was a czechoslovakian gun.

The gun was acquired, among others, by Poland and Yugoslavia.

In 1941 the italians captured a bunch of these from the yugoslavian army, and immediately put them into service, since they shared the same ammo with the 100/17. Italians also obtained more guns from the germans (captured from Czechoslovakia, Poland and Yugoslavia).

The most amazing thing is that after WW II the italian army updated these guns. They were rechambered to 105 mm (to use standard NATO ammo), got a muzzle brake, a Hogg Device (from 25 pdr) and entered service as 105/22 mod 1961.


Here is a pictures, follow the link to Flickr to see additional shots:


105 mm mod. 1961 by Massimo Foti, on Flickr

As far as I know this gun has no relationships with either Sexton or Priests SPGs.

I think the Italian Army, at one point, replaced Sexton's 25 pdr with USA 105/22, but I may be wrong, I have to check my books. I can confirm a 34 calibers barrel was mounted too, but, again, I have to check the books to see if it was adopted or just an experiment.

Massimo
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Costas_TT
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:22 am
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Italy

From the pictures I've seen they retained the carriage and recoil system, but replaced the ordnance (tube and breech) to create the Obice da 105/22 mod. 14/61.

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Massimo_Foti
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:58 am
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Italy

- Pzkpfw-e
The Italian 25pdrs were rebored to 105mm calibre.


Are you sure? Do you have sources for this?
Are you sure you are not mixing 25pdrs and Skoda 100/22 howitzers?
I am away from home and I can't check my books.

Massimo
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Pzkpfw-e
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:24 am
Post subject: Re: Preserved Tanks in Italy

The Italian 25pdrs were rebored to 105mm calibre.
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