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Wings and Wheels 2010 Ursel Belgium
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:34 pm
Post subject: Wings and Wheels 2010 Ursel Belgium

Hi folks

visited the Wings and wheels show at Ursel Belgium last weekend

And because they had some AFV's there, some picture's Cool

Sherman Firefly


Piranha IIIC 8x8 AIV


M5A1 light tank Stuart



other vehicle's around


Michel

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Wings and Wheels 2010 Ursel Belgium

Some more

AEC Mk II MATADOR


M24 Chaffee


Michel

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:00 am
Post subject: Re: Wings and Wheels 2010 Ursel Belgium

Last to show, other wise I get in trouble with the moderators

First of all an LVT
I think it is an LVT 4, however I'm not sure
So if some one could give me the right answer

This one is also from the new For Freedom Museum at Knokke, Belgium



Finaly the second Sherman Firefly at the show an sort of 1+1 = 1 Mr. Green
This Firefly is made up of two different vehicle's, you can see weld seam running accros the side of the vehicle

The other side looks the same
The weld seam run across the additional welded on armour plate, through the turret ring all around


For more vehicle's there:
s1015.photobucket.com/...=slideshow

michel

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bsmart
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Wings and Wheels 2010 Ursel Belgium

Michael - I'm not sure the last firefly was made from two vehicles. It appears to be an M4 Composite which has a cast front plate on a welded hull. They came that way from teh factory

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Wings and Wheels 2010 Ursel Belgium

Well I'm not an Sherman expert
I realy cannot tell you if the ever made an welded hull with an cast front section Neutral

However it is very unlikely that they would make an additional armour plate out of 2 parts, weld it to each section of the tank hull and then weld the two hull sections to 1 hull

Like they did with this tank


Would be easier to weld the 2 hull sections together and after that weld the addtional armour plate to the side

Or is that to much logic .... Confused

Michel

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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Wings and Wheels 2010 Ursel Belgium

Michel,

I agree with Bob, it is a Sherman Composite, also called Hybrid by the British troops. It was built at the Detroit factory with a front cast hull and rear welded hull. The fact that the side appliqué armor is made of 2 parts is common to all of the M4 Composite, I cannot tell why.

P-O

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Wings and Wheels 2010 Ursel Belgium

okay, making the additional armour plate out of 1 part is to much logic Mr. Green

At least now I know what the mean with an hybride hull Laughing

However this leaves me with 2 questions:
- first the small top armour plate has his own stamped in markings: MB4-224, is that an common thing to do
- how many hybride hulls are there still around ??

Michel

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C_Sherman
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Wings and Wheels 2010 Ursel Belgium

- Michel_Krauss
okay, making the additional armour plate out of 1 part is to much logic Mr. Green

At least now I know what the mean with an hybride hull Laughing

However this leaves me with 2 questions:
- first the small top armour plate has his own stamped in markings: MB4-224, is that an common thing to do
- how many hybride hulls are there still around ??

Michel


I was ready shout "Composite", but it was already done before I could. So, it is a "composite" hull Sherman.

The reason the armor plates have different serial is that they were not field fabrications. They were fabricated in a factory, and possibly even applied during manufacturing of the new tank. Even if they were applied in the field, modifications like this were often supplied in a kit that included everything from the armor plates themselves to the welding rod and instructions for installing them. (They still do it that way...the Add-On Armor for our HMMWVs in Iraq in 2004 came like this.)

Industry being what it is, each little bit has it's own part number and other markings. So the individual parts of the add-on armor each have their own part number, drawing, and possibly even production area! Shocked Typically, the part number or drawing number would be (is) stamped or cast into the part, so it could (can) be distinguished from other similar parts...or in the case of that small snip of armor plate, distinguished from scrap metal.

On the other hand, it could be a conspiracy by deep-thinking industry magnates, to confuse future tank spotters and enthusiasts... Twisted Evil Wink

Chuck

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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:26 am
Post subject: Re: Wings and Wheels 2010 Ursel Belgium

- Michel_Krauss


Would be easier to weld the 2 hull sections together and after that weld the addtional armour plate to the side

Or is that to much logic .... Confused

Michel


Michel,

I realize that we didn't answer one of your question.
Yes, it is logical that the additional armor has a welding which is similar to the welding on the hull.
As you can see, the hull is not flat at the place where the appliqué armor was welded, because of the rounded aspect of the cast front hull. If you weld a 1-piece armor plate, it will not fit to the cast part of the hull.

Kurt Laughlin wrote an interesting article about the applique armor, that you can rear here :
http://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scribd.com%2Fdoc%2F30827701%2FApplique-Armor-on-M4-Series-Medium-Tanks&ei=c3lnTIfZHcre4AaP8pmZBA&usg=AFQjCNE78lRDL3hAsvSy4e_3WU3Zj7xVGQ&sig2=6hwvCKhpKXulzlMLsFoyfA

To quote Kurt Laughlin :
"Obviously, mating flat plates on the irregularly curved cast hull required additional measures. While still located 1-inch above the sponson edge, the FSMWO directed that the plates were “cut to suit”. Photographs show several variations in the cut configuration. The left and right rear plates were normally split near the top while the right front plate was cut into two to five pieces to match the compound curves in this area. At some point formed plates that better conformed to the cast hull were issued but the introduction date is unknown."

You will also find other appliqué armor made-up of several bits on M4A1s, like here :





P-O

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:57 am
Post subject: Re: Wings and Wheels 2010 Ursel Belgium

Hi folks,

thanks for the answers

However still 1 question remaining: are there any other Sherman hybride hulls still around


P-O

would be something for your website
Sherman hulls variations and what strange things (additional armour) can be found on them Mr. Green

Michel

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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:17 am
Post subject: Re: Wings and Wheels 2010 Ursel Belgium

- Michel_Krauss
However still 1 question remaining: are there any other Sherman hybride hulls still around


yes, of course. Have a look there :
http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Sherman_Fireflies.pdf

- Michel_Krauss

P-O

would be something for your website
Sherman hulls variations and what strange things (additional armour) can be found on them Mr. Green

Michel


it is planned to be added soon. I was waiting to have better shots of some of the armored plates before creating the page.

P-O

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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:29 am
Post subject: Re: Wings and Wheels 2010 Ursel Belgium

P-O

you can use the picture's if needed
I have some more of diffferent angle's also

I also added some more picture's of Ursel to my photobucket album
s1015.photobucket.com/...=slideshow

Going through the picture's it appears that there where more Dutch vehicle's then Belgium one's Twisted Evil

Michel

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Tichenor
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Wings and Wheels 2010 Ursel Belgium

Michel

That M4 composite is from a private collector near Antwerp, it is an original hull that was recovered from a range some 20 years ago. The turret was aquired a few years later. He has been regular seen at different shows here in Belgium and even in France.

Second question; I have about 26 composite Shermans at the register, most of them can been found in Belgium, Argentina, USA, South Africa and a few in Italy and Australia.
In Belgium there is one as monument in Willebroek (between Antwerp and Brussels) and two at the range in Brasschaat.

Tichenor
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Tichenor
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Wings and Wheels 2010 Ursel Belgium

Michel

You have labeled the M4 Composite wrong at your photobucket album, it should read Sherman Ic Hybrid. The British used Sherman I for the M4, II for the M4A1, III for the M4A2, IV for the M4A3 and V for the M4A4. the letter c was added for the 17pdr and b was used for the 105 (I believe).

Tichenor
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the_shadock
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Wings and Wheels 2010 Ursel Belgium



this is not an AEC Matador as labelled, but an AEC Armoured Car :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AEC_Armoured_Car

(of which I should create a PDF file listing the survivors soon).

the AEC matador is an artillery tractor :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AEC_Matador

P-O

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