±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 733
Total: 733
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Downloads
03: Photo Gallery
04: Community Forums
05: Downloads
06: Photo Gallery
07: Home
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Home
15: Community Forums
16: Home
17: Community Forums
18: Your Account
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Photo Gallery
23: Home
24: News
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Photo Gallery
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Home
35: Community Forums
36: Downloads
37: Photo Gallery
38: Photo Gallery
39: Home
40: Community Forums
41: Photo Gallery
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Your Account
45: Photo Gallery
46: Home
47: Member Screenshots
48: Community Forums
49: Your Account
50: Community Forums
51: Home
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Member Screenshots
55: Home
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Home
59: Photo Gallery
60: Community Forums
61: Downloads
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: CPGlang
65: Community Forums
66: Home
67: Home
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Home
72: Photo Gallery
73: Home
74: Community Forums
75: Home
76: Community Forums
77: News
78: Photo Gallery
79: Community Forums
80: Downloads
81: Your Account
82: News Archive
83: Downloads
84: Community Forums
85: Photo Gallery
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Home
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Home
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Photo Gallery
97: Community Forums
98: Member Screenshots
99: Photo Gallery
100: Community Forums
101: Photo Gallery
102: Community Forums
103: CPGlang
104: Statistics
105: Photo Gallery
106: Your Account
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Home
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Photo Gallery
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Home
122: Community Forums
123: Photo Gallery
124: Home
125: Community Forums
126: Home
127: Home
128: Your Account
129: Photo Gallery
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Photo Gallery
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Home
139: Community Forums
140: Downloads
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: CPGlang
145: Home
146: Home
147: Home
148: Home
149: Photo Gallery
150: Photo Gallery
151: Home
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Photo Gallery
155: Photo Gallery
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Photo Gallery
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Photo Gallery
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Downloads
172: Statistics
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Home
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Photo Gallery
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Home
190: Downloads
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Member Screenshots
195: Your Account
196: Photo Gallery
197: Home
198: Community Forums
199: Photo Gallery
200: Photo Gallery
201: Downloads
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Photo Gallery
205: Photo Gallery
206: Photo Gallery
207: Home
208: Community Forums
209: Photo Gallery
210: Photo Gallery
211: Community Forums
212: Photo Gallery
213: Photo Gallery
214: Community Forums
215: Photo Gallery
216: News
217: Home
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: News
221: Home
222: Community Forums
223: Home
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Photo Gallery
227: CPGlang
228: Photo Gallery
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Photo Gallery
232: Community Forums
233: News Archive
234: Downloads
235: News
236: Home
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Photo Gallery
240: Your Account
241: Photo Gallery
242: Community Forums
243: Downloads
244: Home
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Photo Gallery
250: Member Screenshots
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: CPGlang
254: Home
255: Community Forums
256: Home
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Photo Gallery
260: Community Forums
261: News
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: News
265: Photo Gallery
266: Community Forums
267: Home
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Home
272: Photo Gallery
273: Community Forums
274: Photo Gallery
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Home
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Downloads
282: Photo Gallery
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: News
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Photo Gallery
291: Home
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Home
300: News
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: CPGlang
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Statistics
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Photo Gallery
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Downloads
318: Home
319: Community Forums
320: Home
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Downloads
324: Home
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Home
328: Photo Gallery
329: Home
330: Photo Gallery
331: Home
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Home
335: Photo Gallery
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Home
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Home
342: Community Forums
343: Your Account
344: Home
345: Community Forums
346: Home
347: Community Forums
348: Downloads
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Downloads
352: Photo Gallery
353: Community Forums
354: Your Account
355: News
356: Member Screenshots
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Home
360: Community Forums
361: Home
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Home
367: Home
368: Home
369: Downloads
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Home
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Downloads
380: Community Forums
381: Home
382: Your Account
383: Statistics
384: Community Forums
385: Your Account
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Home
389: Community Forums
390: CPGlang
391: Home
392: Member Screenshots
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Downloads
402: Community Forums
403: Member Screenshots
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Downloads
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: News
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Photo Gallery
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Photo Gallery
423: Photo Gallery
424: Community Forums
425: Downloads
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Home
430: Your Account
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Home
437: Home
438: Member Screenshots
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: CPGlang
442: Community Forums
443: Statistics
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Your Account
448: Home
449: Home
450: CPGlang
451: Community Forums
452: Member Screenshots
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Photo Gallery
456: Community Forums
457: Downloads
458: Community Forums
459: Photo Gallery
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: News Archive
465: Home
466: Community Forums
467: Photo Gallery
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Your Account
471: Home
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Home
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: CPGlang
485: Photo Gallery
486: Home
487: Community Forums
488: Photo Gallery
489: Community Forums
490: News Archive
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: CPGlang
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Downloads
497: Downloads
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Photo Gallery
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Home
508: News
509: Member Screenshots
510: Community Forums
511: CPGlang
512: Community Forums
513: Home
514: CPGlang
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Photo Gallery
518: Member Screenshots
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Home
525: Photo Gallery
526: Community Forums
527: Photo Gallery
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Photo Gallery
537: Home
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: Your Account
546: Community Forums
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Home
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Photo Gallery
557: Photo Gallery
558: Community Forums
559: News
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Community Forums
564: Community Forums
565: Photo Gallery
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Photo Gallery
569: Home
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Member Screenshots
573: Photo Gallery
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Home
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Photo Gallery
583: Community Forums
584: Downloads
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Downloads
588: News
589: Community Forums
590: Home
591: Home
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: CPGlang
597: CPGlang
598: Community Forums
599: Photo Gallery
600: Community Forums
601: Home
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Downloads
605: Photo Gallery
606: Photo Gallery
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Photo Gallery
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Community Forums
613: Community Forums
614: Photo Gallery
615: Community Forums
616: Home
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Photo Gallery
620: Home
621: CPGlang
622: Community Forums
623: Photo Gallery
624: Community Forums
625: Photo Gallery
626: Downloads
627: Community Forums
628: News Archive
629: Photo Gallery
630: Downloads
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: Member Screenshots
634: Home
635: Community Forums
636: Photo Gallery
637: Community Forums
638: Community Forums
639: Downloads
640: CPGlang
641: CPGlang
642: Community Forums
643: Community Forums
644: Community Forums
645: Search
646: Community Forums
647: Community Forums
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Community Forums
652: CPGlang
653: News Archive
654: Community Forums
655: Community Forums
656: Community Forums
657: Community Forums
658: Community Forums
659: Community Forums
660: Community Forums
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: Photo Gallery
664: Photo Gallery
665: Home
666: Photo Gallery
667: Community Forums
668: Home
669: News
670: Community Forums
671: Community Forums
672: Community Forums
673: Photo Gallery
674: Community Forums
675: Photo Gallery
676: Community Forums
677: Community Forums
678: Community Forums
679: Your Account
680: Community Forums
681: Community Forums
682: Photo Gallery
683: Community Forums
684: Community Forums
685: Community Forums
686: Photo Gallery
687: Community Forums
688: Community Forums
689: Community Forums
690: Home
691: Community Forums
692: Home
693: Community Forums
694: Community Forums
695: Photo Gallery
696: Community Forums
697: Home
698: Downloads
699: News
700: Photo Gallery
701: Community Forums
702: Community Forums
703: Photo Gallery
704: Community Forums
705: Community Forums
706: Community Forums
707: Community Forums
708: Home
709: Home
710: Community Forums
711: Community Forums
712: Community Forums
713: Community Forums
714: Home
715: Community Forums
716: Photo Gallery
717: Community Forums
718: Community Forums
719: Community Forums
720: Photo Gallery
721: Downloads
722: Downloads
723: Photo Gallery
724: Community Forums
725: Photo Gallery
726: Community Forums
727: Photo Gallery
728: Community Forums
729: Downloads
730: Community Forums
731: Community Forums
732: Home
733: Downloads

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M48/M60 Turret ID
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:30 pm
Post subject: M48/M60 Turret ID

I'm looking at photos of Israeli tanks and I'm curious how to differentiate an M48A3 (low profile cupola) turret from an M60(A0) turret if the M48A3 has a 105mm gun?

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Rick_Eshleman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 26, 2011
Posts: 908
Location: Lewes, Delaware, USA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Mark,
Here's 2 views of the M60A0 turret at Annapolis. I don't have any M48A3 views, but it's a start. Rick
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail AIM Address Photo Gallery
mikek92888
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 15, 2006
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:25 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

The M60A0 turret was more squared off in the back than the M48 turret.
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:00 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

The M60 never appeared without the distinctive cupola (M19?...can't recall), as far as I've ever known.

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:11 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

I think that Mark’s conundrum comes from the fact that -- after the 1973 War -- the Israelis removed the M19 cupola from most (if not all) of their M60A0 tanks, making the cupola unreliable as an identification feature.

I’ll bet that JoeD can really nail this question, but I’ll give it a shot.

As mikek points out, the M60A0 turret does have an oddly-squarish shape at the back right-hand side, by the antenna mount. The M48-series turret is very rounded in that area. Interestingly -- at least some M60A0s also have a machine gun pintle mount at the back of the turret . . . “inside” the bustle rack. [I think that this was pointed out to me by someone on this forum a few years ago. JoeD? Gary Owsley?] Both of these features can be seen in the drawing in Hunnicutt’s Patton. You can just make out the pintle mount in Rick’s first picture, above.

I was going to say that the definitive identification feature is the location of the lifting eyes on the turret, but a quick look through Patton and a few other references shows this not to be the case. In any event, I believe that the M48-series always used a “one-two” pattern to the turret lifting eyes (one in the front, in the center of the turret glacis; two at the back, on the turret sides). Apparently, some M60A0s also used this pattern, but some M60A0s also used a “two-one” pattern (two at the front, on the upper sides of the turret [like the M60A1]; one at the back, on the center of the turret roof). The M60A0 in Rick’s two photos above have this “two-one” pattern. I do not know what the details of this difference are; perhaps it is due to a different manufacturer? Apparently the first 360 M60A0s were built at Chrysler’s Newark, Delaware plant. From vehicle 361 on, production was carried out at the Detroit Tank Arsenal. Since photos of the initial production vehicles awaiting delivery show the M48-style “one-two” turret lifting eye pattern, and a photo of “late M60 production by Chrysler at the Detroit Tank Arsenal” in Patton shows the other “two-one” pattern lifting eyes, I’m going to guess that the change was due to the different manufacturer.

In any case, I think that if you see turret lifting eyes on the front upper sides of an M48/M60A0-style turret, you can probably bet that it is an M60A0.

Of course, if you can see the hull, that gives all kinds of identification features. But Mark was asking about the turret.

Hopefully, JoeD will see this and hop in here.




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:34 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

- Buq-Buq
I think that Mark’s conundrum comes from the fact that -- after the 1973 War -- the Israelis removed the M19 cupola from most (if not all) of their M60A0 tanks, making the cupola unreliable as an identification feature.


Interesting. I don't believe I have ever seen a photo of an M60 without the cupola, although I can certainly understand why the Israelis would do away with them. It's possible that I just assumed that I was looking at an M48 in the absence of other identifying features.

Any chance of a photo?

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:33 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Israeli M48 & M60 cupolas . . . there’s a subject for a post!

Short version (and some of these details might be soft or just plain wrong, so if anyone knows better, please jump in here): before the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the Israelis had replaced the M1 cupola on a lot of their M48s with the “all-round” (i.e., six-periscope) vision cupola from the Sherman. I believe that at about the time of the ’73 War they were in the process of — or planning to — replace both the M1 cupola and the Sherman cupola with the ‘new’ Urdan cupola, which was just basically a modified version of the original cupola from the M48(A0). It is possible that some M60A0s/M60A1s had their cupolas replaced with the same cupolas mentioned above before the 1973 war, but I can’t think of any pictures of them.

After the 1973 War, most, if not all, Israeli M48-series and M60-series MBTs received the Urdan* cupola as part of the rebuild/upgrade process. The new feature of the Urdan cupola was its ability to be opened on a partial, protected mode, with the hatch cover held parallel to the turret roof, open about 4-6 inches over the cupola opening. This provided the TC with overhead cover, while still allowing direct vision.

If this link works . . . here is an Israeli M60A0 rebuilt to Mag’ach 7 standards:

www.primeportal.net/ta.../magach_7/

You can see the Urdan cupola at the TC’s position. And, if you look hard enough, you can almost recognize an M60A0 under all that added armor and equipment.




Mark



* Edit: I should point out that this is the same cupola that the U.S. later used on their late-model M48A5 (Low-Profile) upgrade.
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:02 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

I knew about the M48 conversions, for both the Israelis and the US tanks. I actually used the Urdan cupola on an M48A5 for a short period, and rather liked it. I'll have to take your word that there were M60s with them, but I've still never seen a basic M60A0 without that damned cupola installed.

I guess I don't think of the Mag'ach conversions as M60s, with all the additional stuff added on the outside. I know that under all that there is an M60, but it's pretty hard to tell from a quick look. They certainly make version ID really tough!

Chuck

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:22 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

- C_Sherman
I'll have to take your word that there were M60s with them, but I've still never seen a basic M60A0 without that damned cupola installed.



Chuck:

Try this link:

idf-armor.blogspot.com.../01/1.html

There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola on this page . . . if you click on a photo and launch the slideshow, image “7 of 23” is what I think of as the ‘classic’ M60A0 in Israeli service. The M19 cupola has been replaced by the Urdan cupola; notice that this turret has the ‘one-two’ lifting eye configuration. This image was also used in David Eshel’s book Israeli’s Armor in Action! (Eshel-Dramit, Ltd., 1978). There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola pictured in that book -- pages 67, 69, and 71. Eshel-Dramit’s War Data No. 4: M-48/60 Patton Main Battle Tank also has several picts, including a nice one taken from slightly above and behind that is on the title page; others are on pages 38 and 47 (on page 25 of that book there is a nice color picture of an upgraded M48A3 with the Sherman-style vision cupola).

Here’s an image of an M60A0 with an Urdan cupola and Blazer ERA mounts at the Latrun museum:

www.davidpride.com/Isr...mor162.htm

Lastly, this page on Patton-Mania doesn’t have any images, but it does have a physical description, about halfway down (note that this article refers to the M19 cupola as the “M1 CWS”):

www.patton-mania.com/I...ttons.html

To bolster its armoured force the IDF purchased 150 M60A1 tanks from the US in 1971. During and shortly before the Yom–Kippur War in 1973 Israel took delivery of additional M60 and M60A1 tanks from US stocks. Most of the M60A1’s took part in the 1973 fighting with their M1 CWS in place. Some had a .30 Cal machinegun mounted externally. Most but not all M60’s seem to have been upgraded with the unique Urdan cupola prior to any deployment.
The Pattons in the Yom Kippur War were upgraded M48’s (Magach 3), M60 with and without the Urdan cupola and M60A1 with the M1 CWS and some with the M1 CWS minus its M85 gun but an externally cradle mounted .30Cal. Some already featured an additional .50Cal mounted above the main gun for added firepower against soft targets.




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:18 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

What got me started on this was that for some reason I was thinking that the Israeli M48A3 with a 105mm gun was also known as M48A4. A Wikipedia article says the M48A4 had the turret from an M60(A0). So what I was wondering was if you see an Israeli M48 with a 105mm gun then does it possibly have an M60(A0) turret?

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:51 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Mark:

References aren't to hand right now (Hunnicutt, primarily, and possibly also Jim Mesko's Squadron/Signal book on M48s) . . . but if I remember correctly, the official M48A4 designation never actually got used, since the imagined surplus of turrets from the M60A0s converted to M60A2s never happened. I believe that only one such tank ever existed (and it might have been known as an M48A1E2 or something like that). I think that the Mesko book mentioned that the Israeli conversions of their M48-series to "M48A5-standard" were then unofficially referred to as M48A4s in U.S. paperwork. So, I kind of doubt that you would see an Israeli M48Ax with an M60A0 turret — at least not coming from U.S. sources. What sort of modifications and/or turret switching the Israelis carried out is sort of above and beyond . . .

Bear in mind, this is all from memory, so it could be a bit twisted. Or just wrong.

I suppose, if you see an obviously M48 hull, with a turret with the funny squared-off right rear area, or a 'two-one' pattern to the turret lifting eyes, then you've probably found an ersatz M48A4 . . . at least by the 'book-description'. I've never seen one, but then again, I've also never set out to see if I could find one, before a couple nights ago.




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:08 pm
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

- Buq-Buq
- C_Sherman
I'll have to take your word that there were M60s with them, but I've still never seen a basic M60A0 without that damned cupola installed.



Chuck:

Try this link:

idf-armor.blogspot.com.../01/1.html

There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola on this page . . . if you click on a photo and launch the slideshow, image “7 of 23” is what I think of as the ‘classic’ M60A0 in Israeli service. The M19 cupola has been replaced by the Urdan cupola; notice that this turret has the ‘one-two’ lifting eye configuration. This image was also used in David Eshel’s book Israeli’s Armor in Action! (Eshel-Dramit, Ltd., 1978). There are a couple M60A0s with the Urdan cupola pictured in that book -- pages 67, 69, and 71. Eshel-Dramit’s War Data No. 4: M-48/60 Patton Main Battle Tank also has several picts, including a nice one taken from slightly above and behind that is on the title page; others are on pages 38 and 47 (on page 25 of that book there is a nice color picture of an upgraded M48A3 with the Sherman-style vision cupola).

Here’s an image of an M60A0 with an Urdan cupola and Blazer ERA mounts at the Latrun museum:

www.davidpride.com/Isr...mor162.htm

Lastly, this page on Patton-Mania doesn’t have any images, but it does have a physical description, about halfway down (note that this article refers to the M19 cupola as the “M1 CWS”):

www.patton-mania.com/I...ttons.html

To bolster its armoured force the IDF purchased 150 M60A1 tanks from the US in 1971. During and shortly before the Yom–Kippur War in 1973 Israel took delivery of additional M60 and M60A1 tanks from US stocks. Most of the M60A1’s took part in the 1973 fighting with their M1 CWS in place. Some had a .30 Cal machinegun mounted externally. Most but not all M60’s seem to have been upgraded with the unique Urdan cupola prior to any deployment.
The Pattons in the Yom Kippur War were upgraded M48’s (Magach 3), M60 with and without the Urdan cupola and M60A1 with the M1 CWS and some with the M1 CWS minus its M85 gun but an externally cradle mounted .30Cal. Some already featured an additional .50Cal mounted above the main gun for added firepower against soft targets.




Mark


Well, cool! Now I've seen an M60 without the cupola.

(BTW, I'm not at all sure the cupola was actually called M19. That just stuck in my memory for some reason, and it may be completely wrong. I do know we never referred to them as a CWS.)

Thanks. I've been schooled, and I appreciate it.

Chuck

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
tanker2010
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:51 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Uh, here's a thought...look at the hull. M48's had a different frront hull and fenders. M48's had angular fenders, M60's had curved fenders. All M60's had 3 return rollers. Since the IDF used a Mix of M48's they could have 3 or 5 return rollers. Patton ID 101.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Buq-Buq
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:29 am
Post subject: Re: M48/M60 Turret ID

Uh, here's a thought...look at the hull. M48's had a different frront hull and fenders. M48's had angular fenders, M60's had curved fenders. All M60's had 3 return rollers. Since the IDF used a Mix of M48's they could have 3 or 5 return rollers. Patton ID 101.


Gary (it IS Gary, isn’t it?):

You are absolutely right -- the hull would be the dead give-away in almost any case. Thanks for throwing in on this one. I actually did mention hulls as a method of differentiation in the fifth post of this thread:

Of course, if you can see the hull, that gives all kinds of identification features. But Mark was asking about the turret.


. . . but as I added, the original poster was specifically looking for information on identifying the turret . . . for whatever reason. Perhaps the tank is hull-down, or maybe the picture he is looking at is cropped, or maybe the turret wasn’t mounted on a tank, or maybe he wonders if maybe he might be looking at an M48A4 instead . . . the latter theory apparently being exactly what he had in mind. So I was pretty much concentrating on identifying the turret type, figuring that if he had really wanted to identify the tank type by the hull, he would have asked that question instead.

But you’re right, Gary, if you can see the hull (and if you’re confident that you’re not looking at an M48A4 -- or an ersatz M48A4), then you have a pretty good idea whether it is an M48-series vehicle or an M60-series vehicle.

Chuck, Mark, et al:

I had a look in Hunnicutt’s Patton, and the standard M60-series cupola is the M19 (although it is described in one caption on page 159 of that same book as the “M29”, which is presumably a typo). In a previous post, I used the name “M48A1E2” to describe the M48A4 ‘protoytpe’; this was incorrect, and should have been “M48A1E3” (additionally, there were two of these ‘prototype’ tanks built, not one). I did find it interesting that the M48A4 was originally going to be called the XM735, and the M48A5 was originally slated to be called the XM736.

I seems to me that the first time I can ever recall the M48A4 mentioned was in an article on post-WWII American armor in a magazine called . . . if my memory serves me correctly: Combat Illustrated . . . circa the mid- to late 1970s (or maybe the early 1980s). I can’t find it anywhere; I would think I would still have it. Does anyone recall that magazine or article?




Mark
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum