±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 623
Total: 623
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Photo Gallery
04: Home
05: Community Forums
06: News
07: Photo Gallery
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Downloads
18: Community Forums
19: Member Screenshots
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Photo Gallery
24: Community Forums
25: Home
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Downloads
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Your Account
39: Downloads
40: Community Forums
41: Downloads
42: Community Forums
43: Photo Gallery
44: Community Forums
45: Photo Gallery
46: Community Forums
47: Photo Gallery
48: Community Forums
49: Home
50: Community Forums
51: Home
52: Photo Gallery
53: Photo Gallery
54: Photo Gallery
55: Community Forums
56: Photo Gallery
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Home
60: Downloads
61: Community Forums
62: Photo Gallery
63: Community Forums
64: Downloads
65: Community Forums
66: Home
67: News Archive
68: Community Forums
69: Home
70: Community Forums
71: News
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Downloads
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Photo Gallery
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: CPGlang
88: Your Account
89: Member Screenshots
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Photo Gallery
93: Community Forums
94: Statistics
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Home
98: Community Forums
99: Photo Gallery
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Photo Gallery
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Photo Gallery
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: News Archive
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Downloads
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Home
124: Downloads
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Photo Gallery
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: News
132: Community Forums
133: Home
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Downloads
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Downloads
140: Home
141: Community Forums
142: Photo Gallery
143: Community Forums
144: Photo Gallery
145: Community Forums
146: Photo Gallery
147: Home
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Member Screenshots
157: Community Forums
158: Photo Gallery
159: Community Forums
160: Home
161: Community Forums
162: Home
163: Home
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: CPGlang
167: Home
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Home
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Your Account
175: Downloads
176: Photo Gallery
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Home
183: Photo Gallery
184: Home
185: Community Forums
186: Home
187: Photo Gallery
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Home
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Photo Gallery
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Photo Gallery
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Statistics
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Photo Gallery
210: Your Account
211: Community Forums
212: Home
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Photo Gallery
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Home
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Photo Gallery
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: CPGlang
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: CPGlang
240: Photo Gallery
241: Downloads
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Home
248: Photo Gallery
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Photo Gallery
252: Photo Gallery
253: Community Forums
254: Your Account
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Photo Gallery
262: Home
263: Home
264: Your Account
265: Statistics
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Photo Gallery
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: CPGlang
278: Photo Gallery
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Photo Gallery
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Home
288: Photo Gallery
289: Community Forums
290: Downloads
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: News
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Photo Gallery
299: Community Forums
300: Photo Gallery
301: Community Forums
302: Downloads
303: Photo Gallery
304: Home
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: Photo Gallery
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Photo Gallery
311: Member Screenshots
312: Community Forums
313: Photo Gallery
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Photo Gallery
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Your Account
320: Home
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Home
324: Photo Gallery
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Photo Gallery
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Home
332: Community Forums
333: Home
334: Home
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Downloads
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Photo Gallery
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Home
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Photo Gallery
353: Community Forums
354: Photo Gallery
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Photo Gallery
360: Photo Gallery
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Your Account
375: Community Forums
376: Home
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Home
382: Community Forums
383: Home
384: Home
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Home
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Member Screenshots
394: Photo Gallery
395: Community Forums
396: Home
397: CPGlang
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Photo Gallery
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Photo Gallery
412: Community Forums
413: Photo Gallery
414: Community Forums
415: Photo Gallery
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: CPGlang
427: Community Forums
428: CPGlang
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Photo Gallery
432: Community Forums
433: Photo Gallery
434: Community Forums
435: Home
436: Home
437: Community Forums
438: Home
439: Community Forums
440: Photo Gallery
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Statistics
444: Community Forums
445: Downloads
446: Photo Gallery
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Photo Gallery
451: Photo Gallery
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Home
458: Photo Gallery
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Photo Gallery
466: Home
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Home
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Photo Gallery
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Home
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Photo Gallery
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Photo Gallery
490: Community Forums
491: Home
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Photo Gallery
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Home
508: Photo Gallery
509: Downloads
510: Community Forums
511: Home
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Downloads
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Member Screenshots
518: Community Forums
519: Photo Gallery
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Downloads
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Home
529: Community Forums
530: Photo Gallery
531: Community Forums
532: Community Forums
533: Home
534: Home
535: Photo Gallery
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Photo Gallery
539: Photo Gallery
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Downloads
543: Home
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Community Forums
548: Photo Gallery
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Home
552: Downloads
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Statistics
556: Downloads
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Community Forums
560: Member Screenshots
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Your Account
564: Community Forums
565: News Archive
566: Photo Gallery
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Downloads
570: Photo Gallery
571: Home
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Home
577: Community Forums
578: CPGlang
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Photo Gallery
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Member Screenshots
589: Home
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Member Screenshots
596: Photo Gallery
597: Community Forums
598: Member Screenshots
599: Community Forums
600: Photo Gallery
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: CPGlang
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Photo Gallery
607: Community Forums
608: Photo Gallery
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Photo Gallery
612: Community Forums
613: Home
614: Community Forums
615: Photo Gallery
616: Statistics
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Home
622: Photo Gallery
623: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Thunder Runs into Baghdad.
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:57 am
Post subject: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

Hi Folks!

Just finished reading "Thunder Run, the Armored Strike to Capture Baghdad" by David Zucchino. This book covers the actions of the 2nd Spartan Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division and the two Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

The first plan for taking Baghad was to surround it with heavy armored forces. Then the infantry of the 82nd and the 101st AB Divisions would go in clearing the city, block by block. The Thunder Runs were NEVER part of the plan. The Commander of the Spartan Brigade came up with the idea.

During the 1st Thunder Run through town, a number of the tanks had problems with the 7.62mm coax guns jamming. After some talk about the common problem, the crews figured out it was operator error. The trays which catch the spent brass were full and brass was piling up into the guns and jamming them.

Near the end of the first Thunder Run, the lead tank found a road block made up of concrete highway dividers that had been placed acrossed the road. Using the mine plow, they hit the road block at forty kilometers per hour and went flying over it. A second tank with a mine plow hit the road block followed by the rest of the colume. I bet they don't teach obstacle breaching like that at the NTC or Ft. Knox.

During the night before the second Thunder Run, a recon by the Brigade S4 found a four hundred meter mine field had been layed on the highway. The engineers sent in to clear the field found hundreds of Italian made antitank mines lined up on top the blacktop. The mines had been covered with dirt. It took the Engineers about two hours to move 444 AT mines off to the side of the road. Wonder if that is a record?

Charlie Company of the 4th Bn/64th Ar had a Bradley with a mixed crew of Army and Marines. The Marines were part of an ANGLICO team attached to the 3rd ID.

Ammo useage by A Company , 4th/68th Armor
April 8th, fired 24,000 rounds of 7.62mm, 10,000 rounds of 50 cal., and 64 main gun rounds during the battle for one of three intersections.
During two days at the palace, they fired 70,000 rounds of 7.62mm machine gun ammo.

Book/Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

ANGLICO = Air and Naval Gunfire Liaison Company

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:06 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

Hi Folks!

There was one event that puzzles me a little. I remembered Dontos' post about firing the main gun with the engine running.

During the first night in town, one of the tank companies picked up a group of men walking down the middle of street. They were heading for the American's positions and carrying PRGs and AK47s. If I understand the story corrrectly, those men didn't know where the Americans were.

The engines were all off to save fuel. The alert was passed along to all the tanks for all crewmen to man their vehicles. The Company Commander gave a count down over the radio to START engines.

At first I though, why not open fire with machine guns and then start the engines? The element of surpise was lost starting the engines.

I am a bit puzzled by this event. Do any of you M1 tankers have any insight as to why they did it that way?
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
mumfordlibrarian
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:10 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

I would suspect that the commander wished to have the ability to maneuver if threatened by AT weapons. There is no guarantee that using MGs would get all the bad guys without some reaching cover and a moving tank can use their main gun to bring down the building on any AT team attempting to take cover in it. Also if able to maneuver the Iraqis could not run with any assurance of escape.

Paul T. Weaver
A totally uninformed opinion
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

Roy

The use of 'short-count' start up, prior to engaging the enemy does add the ability of manuever to the battle. A key component to armor combat, to 'Shoot, Manuever, & Communicate'.

The use of 'short-count' also masks the actual number of elements in the unit. When a single vehicle starts up, the noise pinpoints that vehicles location to a near by enemy force. An 'all vehicle' start up at 'stand to' brings all vehicles to 'red-con 1' and masks the actual vehicle locations.

Don

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Burik
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 05, 2006
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:50 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

David Zucchino's book is outstanding. In my opinion, only one other book rivals it as a great OIF book, and that is The March Up, which is the Marine fight from the crossing of the border til the fall of Baghdad. There is a very good book about Fallujah by one of the same authors as The March Up, and I understand there is supposed to be a movie about it too.

At about the same time Zucchino's book came out I was putting together my book for Concord (the modelers here will know that publisher as a publisher of photo history books). Anyway, my co-author was with 1-64 Armor and he was very good friends with Sgt Booker, who died on the first thunder run. It was amazing with all that heavy fighting that our casualties were so low on both thunder runs.

My co-author (1st Sgt Eric Olson) was not featured in Zucchino's book due to being out on training when Zucchino was at Ft Stewart interviewing soldiers for their stories. I have Sgt Olson's journal and it would have added some good stuff to the book, but in a small way I was able to put some of Sgt Olson's personal experiences in our little book in the introduction. By the way, those of you who know of my book will probably wonder why the lame title. It was only supposed to be a working title. I thought I would get a preview before it went to print, but no, it appears in my mail, and there was nothing I could do about it. Oh well.

I was truly amazed at the US Army's professionalism as I read that book, and I was awestruck when I first saw my co-author's 4,000+ photographs that he had culled together. But what got me the most is the video I was privelaged to view of the thunder runs. It was really something to see the Abrams firing on the move at real targets. I saw an MPAT's effect on an Iraqi bunker at 300 yards. I also saw one of those pickup trucks just riding along side of the tanks and trying to take pot-shots at the tanks. Unbelievable stupidity. The coax lit them up, and I was surprised to see so many sparks coming off the pick-up. It looked almost fake. The video also covered the area where the column had to turn around. Weird to see all those civilian vehicles just passing by, and not one of them was fired at, unless of course they fired first or were clearly enemy like the pick-up noted above. The crews did not screw around at overpasses. Speeds were actually kind of slow (seemed like about 20mph) but when they got to the overpasses, they sped up quite a bit to avoid potential ambushes from sides and above.

There is a very good Discover Channel documentary (Sgt Olson is interviewed in that) called The Fight For Baghdad. It brings the Zucchino book into perspective from a visual point of view. No photos in book by the way. That was the only negative about the book for me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
blair
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:10 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

It was one of the best books I have ever read. I just finished the Last Citadel which provides a fascinating look look into the armor battles between the russians and germans.( especially the visceral description of the weight power and impact of the Tiger tank)

In Thunder run wasn't there an incident where an speeding M1 had its turret traversed to the right and the main gun hit a concrete pillar and it spun the turret around like crazy?
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:33 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

Hi Blair! Hi Folks!

- blair

In Thunder run wasn't there an incident where an speeding M1 had its turret traversed to the right and the main gun hit a concrete pillar and it spun the turret around like crazy?


That would be Lt. Roger Gruneisen in Charlie One One - Creeping Death.
A lot of the gear from SSG Jason Diaz's Charlie One Two - Cojone Eh? had been piled on top of Charlie One One. Lt. Gruneisen had order SSG Diaz off the blow out panels, were he had been firing one of his M240Cs, and inside. With his hatch in "open-protected" mode, he could not see to the front. The gunner was working targets off to the right side of the hull.
Charlie One One was trying to catch up to the front part of the colume and was moving fast. David Zucchino wrote that the turret spun "fifteen, twenty" times. It was a dam good thing that Lt. Gruneisen had just ordered hatchs closed and for SSG Diaz to get down inside. If not he would have been thrown off when the turret turned into a spinning top.

Lesson to be learned here. DON'T BLOCK THE TC's VIEW!

Book/Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:21 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

Hi Paul! Hi Folks!

- mumfordlibrarian
I would suspect that the commander wished to have the ability to maneuver if threatened by AT weapons.


One tank took two RPG hits between the time the engines started cranking and the TC fire off a main gun without aiming it.

- mumfordlibrarian

There is no guarantee that using MGs would get all the bad guys without some reaching cover


I went back and reread that area again. Many of the Iragis made it into pre-positioned bunkers which in time took a platoon of infantry to sweep through and clear the area.

From the book, "Now Wolford was able to function propertly. (my note: A Co. 4th/68th Ar Company Commander, his tank had to be jump started by the XO's tank) He realized the RPG teams had seized control of the fight. He had never seen Iraqis lay down such an effective volume of fire."

As for the point about Armor being able to 'manuever', the only manuevering that was being done was
1. by the XO's tank pulling up next to the CO's tank,
2. one of the tank using hull movement to aline the main gun with targets,
3. another platoon moving to support the platoon at the center of the attack,
4. a platoon of Bradleys with Infantry moving over to provide more fire power.

As for the platoon at the center of the attack, those tanks held their positions on the perimeter. If they had started moving around they might have opened up a hole for the Iraqis to slip through and attack the battalion TOC and LOG Park, along with the Bde TOC and into the rear of the other tank battalion.

I guess my main problem with starting the engines is I was seeing this as a Vietnam era NDP defense. From Dontos post, I guess the current crop of tankers don't train that way.

I guess I am not as confuzed as I was.
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile


Paul T. Weaver
A totally uninformed opinion[/quote]

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum