±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 639
Total: 639
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Your Account
02: Your Account
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Photo Gallery
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Photo Gallery
09: Photo Gallery
10: Community Forums
11: Member Screenshots
12: Home
13: Downloads
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Photo Gallery
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Photo Gallery
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Home
24: Community Forums
25: Photo Gallery
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Downloads
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Home
39: Community Forums
40: Your Account
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Photo Gallery
44: Photo Gallery
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Home
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Photo Gallery
55: Community Forums
56: Home
57: Home
58: Home
59: News Archive
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Photo Gallery
63: Community Forums
64: Photo Gallery
65: Community Forums
66: Photo Gallery
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Photo Gallery
71: Statistics
72: Photo Gallery
73: Community Forums
74: Your Account
75: Community Forums
76: CPGlang
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Home
80: Home
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Home
85: Community Forums
86: Photo Gallery
87: Community Forums
88: Photo Gallery
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Member Screenshots
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Photo Gallery
99: Photo Gallery
100: Home
101: News Archive
102: Community Forums
103: Home
104: CPGlang
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Downloads
108: Member Screenshots
109: Home
110: Photo Gallery
111: Photo Gallery
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Home
117: Home
118: News
119: Photo Gallery
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Photo Gallery
128: Community Forums
129: Home
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Photo Gallery
135: Photo Gallery
136: Community Forums
137: Home
138: Downloads
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Photo Gallery
142: Community Forums
143: Photo Gallery
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Photo Gallery
156: Home
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Home
165: Community Forums
166: News Archive
167: Community Forums
168: Home
169: Home
170: Photo Gallery
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Photo Gallery
176: Community Forums
177: Home
178: Community Forums
179: Photo Gallery
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Search
184: Community Forums
185: Home
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Home
189: Community Forums
190: Downloads
191: Downloads
192: Your Account
193: Community Forums
194: Downloads
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Home
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Photo Gallery
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Photo Gallery
211: Community Forums
212: Photo Gallery
213: Community Forums
214: Member Screenshots
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Photo Gallery
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Photo Gallery
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Downloads
229: Photo Gallery
230: Member Screenshots
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Home
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Photo Gallery
238: Community Forums
239: Downloads
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Photo Gallery
247: Community Forums
248: Statistics
249: Member Screenshots
250: Photo Gallery
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Home
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Photo Gallery
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Home
265: Photo Gallery
266: Member Screenshots
267: Downloads
268: Downloads
269: Member Screenshots
270: Community Forums
271: Photo Gallery
272: Your Account
273: Photo Gallery
274: Photo Gallery
275: Photo Gallery
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Downloads
279: Your Account
280: Photo Gallery
281: Community Forums
282: Home
283: Member Screenshots
284: Downloads
285: Community Forums
286: Home
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Photo Gallery
290: Community Forums
291: Statistics
292: Home
293: Community Forums
294: Photo Gallery
295: Downloads
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Home
300: Photo Gallery
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Photo Gallery
309: Community Forums
310: Home
311: Your Account
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Photo Gallery
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Photo Gallery
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Photo Gallery
325: Downloads
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Downloads
331: Downloads
332: Photo Gallery
333: Home
334: Home
335: Community Forums
336: Home
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Photo Gallery
343: Downloads
344: Community Forums
345: Photo Gallery
346: Your Account
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Photo Gallery
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Statistics
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Your Account
361: Home
362: Photo Gallery
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Home
368: Community Forums
369: Home
370: Community Forums
371: Home
372: Home
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Photo Gallery
376: Home
377: Downloads
378: CPGlang
379: Home
380: Community Forums
381: Downloads
382: Member Screenshots
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Photo Gallery
387: Community Forums
388: Home
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Home
394: Community Forums
395: Photo Gallery
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Photo Gallery
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Home
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Your Account
410: Home
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Photo Gallery
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Photo Gallery
419: Community Forums
420: Photo Gallery
421: Photo Gallery
422: Downloads
423: Downloads
424: Photo Gallery
425: Downloads
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Photo Gallery
431: Community Forums
432: Photo Gallery
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Community Forums
437: News
438: Statistics
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Photo Gallery
451: Member Screenshots
452: Home
453: Home
454: Photo Gallery
455: Photo Gallery
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Photo Gallery
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Photo Gallery
465: Community Forums
466: Home
467: CPGlang
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Your Account
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Photo Gallery
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Photo Gallery
490: Your Account
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Downloads
496: Community Forums
497: Downloads
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Downloads
502: Downloads
503: Community Forums
504: Downloads
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Home
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Home
516: Photo Gallery
517: Your Account
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Photo Gallery
521: Photo Gallery
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Photo Gallery
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Photo Gallery
531: Photo Gallery
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Photo Gallery
539: Community Forums
540: Home
541: Photo Gallery
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Photo Gallery
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Photo Gallery
550: Community Forums
551: Home
552: Community Forums
553: Photo Gallery
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: Photo Gallery
559: News Archive
560: Statistics
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Home
564: Downloads
565: Downloads
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Member Screenshots
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Photo Gallery
577: Photo Gallery
578: Photo Gallery
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: CPGlang
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Photo Gallery
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Home
592: Community Forums
593: Photo Gallery
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Community Forums
599: Photo Gallery
600: Community Forums
601: Photo Gallery
602: Community Forums
603: Photo Gallery
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Photo Gallery
610: Photo Gallery
611: Community Forums
612: Photo Gallery
613: CPGlang
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Community Forums
618: Home
619: Photo Gallery
620: Your Account
621: Community Forums
622: Photo Gallery
623: Statistics
624: Photo Gallery
625: Photo Gallery
626: Photo Gallery
627: Community Forums
628: Photo Gallery
629: Community Forums
630: Home
631: Community Forums
632: Photo Gallery
633: Community Forums
634: Community Forums
635: Downloads
636: Home
637: Community Forums
638: CPGlang
639: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
off topic Vietnam
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:11 pm
Post subject: Re: off topic Vietnam

The comments on chroming reminded me, isn't the current barrel heavier than the initial production barrels?

You look at recent shots out of Iraq and it seems almost everybody's carrying the carbine instead of the long-barrelled M16! Its my impession the two weapons are functionally identical except for the different barrel, stock and any add-on doodads. Am I right, or are there actual differences?
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:51 pm
Post subject: Re: off topic Vietnam

- mike_Duplessis
The comments on chroming reminded me, isn't the current barrel heavier than the initial production barrels?

You look at recent shots out of Iraq and it seems almost everybody's carrying the carbine instead of the long-barrelled M16! Its my impession the two weapons are functionally identical except for the different barrel, stock and any add-on doodads. Am I right, or are there actual differences?


We need one of the younger guys to answer this, but are not most M4's also limited to semi-auto and 3-round "burst mode" cycles, or was that only the M-16A2?
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2066
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:58 pm
Post subject: Re: off topic Vietnam

Doug,
This is what I know, remember, tankers like me never were issued M16's when we came in, It was M3's and .45's. I carried an M16A1 for gaurd duty at Miessau and also when we gaurded the Abrams complex during the early 80's. Fired it once, seemed very flimsy to me. We had one bend when a soldier let a deuce and a half tire fall on one. I carried an A2 and M4 a few years back and both had the 3 round burst. I used an A4 at Hood while training up, also 3 round burst. A4 handle is removable and is machined with the picatinny type rail so you can mount an ACOG or M68 sight. All have heavy barrels and use a higher grain round (Green tip). I loved my A4. Very accurate. (40 for 40, yeah baby). We didn't get cleaning kits or much CLP for a while so I went about a week without cleaning it good. Just the chamber. Fired blanks and live, Never had a malfunction. Impressed me. I never paid much attention to the brass, but yes, it does have a blue tinge, I didn't know why until now.

Shawn,
The M4 and M16A2 on are all Heavy barrels, the M-4 isn't as accurate because of the shorter barrel. It's also zeroed a little differently. It is prefered because it is a lot easier to get in and out of a vehicle when wearing body armor and all the other goodies. We did have some M16A1's show up in theater late 2002 but they were quickly exchanged for M4's/M16A2's. Couldn't support the A1's with ammo or parts. Same thing happened with the old M60 MG, Though they hung around a little longer than planned, Since parts were it's only hang up.
Roy,
I sure know all about units getting screwed out of training time. Support platoons and FSB platoons usually get the short end of the stick. Usually their ammo allocations for crew serve weapons is given to the line guys for those un-supported live fire exercises. Individual weapons qualification is harder to blow off. Each soldier is allotted a set amount of ammo to zero/group/qualify their weapon. This is tracked monthly and reported up, heaven help a company commander who fails to keep their unit qualified. There is always a range going on. That said, 5 years ago it was not unusual to be running a range and have soldiers show up and not be able to qualify until their 5th or 6th attempt (if at all). These were usually soldiers that found out they had to be there that morning and had no prior marksmanship training, even though they had a memorandum signed saying they did. Made for a very long and frustrating day. It would also be the only time that year they actually fired that weapon. Not the soldiers fault, Leaders. As you said, 507th was at the mercy of their BDE. Somewhere in their chain of command a leader made the decision that maintaining/moving equipment was more important than training combat skills for these soldiers. Not uncommon back then. This war has definately changed how we train the CS/CSS units. Unfortunately it takes a situation like the 507th's to get it fixed.

I am stepping of my soap box now,
Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:10 pm
Post subject: Re: off topic Vietnam

- Joe_D
Doug,
This is what I know, remember, tankers like me never were issued M16's when we came in, It was M3's and .45's. I carried an M16A1 for gaurd duty at Miessau and also when we gaurded the Abrams complex during the early 80's. Fired it once, seemed very flimsy to me. We had one bend when a soldier let a deuce and a half tire fall on one. I carried an A2 and M4 a few years back and both had the 3 round burst. I used an A4 at Hood while training up, also 3 round burst. A4 handle is removable and is machined with the picatinny type rail so you can mount an ACOG or M68 sight. All have heavy barrels and use a higher grain round (Green tip). I loved my A4. Very accurate. (40 for 40, yeah baby). We didn't get cleaning kits or much CLP for a while so I went about a week without cleaning it good. Just the chamber. Fired blanks and live, Never had a malfunction. Impressed me. I never paid much attention to the brass, but yes, it does have a blue tinge, I didn't know why until now.

Joe D


Hi Joe...
Ahhh, the M3 "greasegun". Yes, I was trained and qualified on that one, too...and I'm sure Roy was as well. Quaint little piece of kit, for the price...and reasonably effective within it's limited range. There were still marked stowage points on the walls of the M60A2 for those things....

In VN, when I finally got down to the 11th ACR, you were issued any weapon of your choice that they had. In my case, I had a personally-owned .45 so I took an M16 for my backup (they wouldn't issue both, anyway).

I once, on an assault in-line into the bush when contact had been established, saw the driver of a Sheridan advancing next to my vehicle actually popping off .45 rounds from his postion in the driver's seat as he steered one-handed into the bush....I'm not sure what that added to the hail of lead already hurtling into the shrubbery, but it seemed to make him feel better... Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:55 pm
Post subject: Re: off topic Vietnam

- SHAWN


i just bought an AR-15 with the early upper and lower receivers...

shawn


Hey Shawn, Question for you. Does the bore and the chamber look like they have been chromed?

If they are, with current ammo, you shouldn't have to much of a problem if you are going to use it for target shooting.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:50 am
Post subject: Re: off topic Vietnam

Hi guys,

I guess I qualify as a current user, even if I don't really fit the definition of "younger guy".

Here's the deal. M16A1 was the model that corrected all the problems of the rushed fielding of the M16 (forked flash suppressor, no forward assist, etc.) The original M16 actually had the chromed bore introduced pretty quickly once the rifle was in service. (All subsequent models of the rifle had/have the chrome bore.) The basic problem was that the rifle was rushed into combat (politics, natch) before all the bugs were worked out. Problems with powder fouling and lack of cleaning kits were among the major problems that the rifle encountered and which were rapidly fixed...but not before the reputation of the weapon was irreversibly tarnished.

The M16A2 was a long-planned, late-funded update to the rifle. The stock was extended about 1" to better fit the modern American physique. The barrel was beefed up for part of it's length to resist heat problems and bending when young indelicate soldiers leaned into it while firing. A finger rest was added to the handgrip, the forward assist button was reshaped, and the sights were replaced with a more adjustable version. There were a few other changes, but the really major one was a change in the rifling from 1 twist in 8" to 1:6. This came as a result of an ammunition change, which came because of the requirements of the new M249 SAW.

(The range/accuracy requirements for the M249 SAW could not be met using existing NATO 5.56mm ammunition. The bullet was too light to carry accurately. So the bullet weight was increased, and the stabilizing spin on the bullet was increased by the rifling change. Standardization of ammunition dictated changing the rifling on the M16s. This is also the reason that the M16A1 is no longer used in combat, as the new ammunition cannot be fired safely through the old rifle. However, the old ammunition CAN be fired through the new model rifle, with some reduction in range and accuracy.)

The M4 is a cut-down version of the M16. I've been told that the type classification is actually for a rifle based on the M16A2, and previous M4-looking weapons were actually modifications using non-official parts within the SOF community.

There is no M16A3, as the delay in the M16A2 being fielded allowed the A3 mods to be applied to the A2.

The M16A4 is the version mentioned by Joe D, which has a detachable carrying handle ("flat-top") with Pic rails on the receiver and handgrips. The M4A1 is the short counterpart of the M16A4, with similar mods. The availability of aftermarket bits and bobs on the internet has led to a diversity of appearance in combat, with soldiers tricking out their weapons to suit their tastes. As long as they don't affect or modify the weapon in a permanent way, such customizing is generally tolerated by commanders...although chrome plating of safety catches and forward assists is frowned on.

The "green tip" bullets that Joe D refers to are literally "green" rounds in the environmental sense. Faced with terrific costs for cleaning up lead contamination at rifle ranges affected by base closures, the Army figured out that not-making-the-problem-worse was a smart idea. So, they developed a bullet made of zinc alloys that isn't an environmental hazard but which duplicates the penetration and ballistic properties of the lead bullets. This ammunition was initially viewed sceptically (as is everything involved with the rifle since the initial problems), but it is now the only bullet available in ball ammunition for both the M16 and the M249. (I used tracer ammo in Iraq (red-orange tip), but I never found out if it is the zinc ammo or if it is still lead.)

Overall, the statistical performance of the rifle and ammunition is hard to argue with, despite anecdotal arguments that persist around the internet. Even the SOF guys use it more often than not, only using heavier weapons in special circumstances. The 9mm pistol bullet doesn't enjoy the same acceptance, and a strong move is afoot to return to the .45 for US pistols (but probably not to the beloved M1911 pistol).


C

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
oldtop
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 17, 2006
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:26 am
Post subject: Re: off topic Vietnam

I guess I'm an "ole guy", having landed in Nam in April of 65 (Marines), we didn't see the M16s till late 66 I believe. as for myself being a track-mec/ scout in a Ontos (hi dontos) plt. I kept my M14. The M16 I first saw going into service didn't have chromed bores or chambers. The first problem with the the rifle was there wasn't ANY cleaning equippment, no cleaning rods, bore brushes or lubercants. To help with the problem the troops were given a printed page put out by Colt Fire Arms stating that this was the first "self-cleaning" rifle! Next was the idiotic flash hider (so much for field testing) it was like taking a pitckfork into the woods, everthing jammed into and hung-up in those prongs. Some were along the line they came up with changing to the good ole stand by "Ball powder" because it gave a little more pust to the bullets, as pointed out the gas operating system in the M16 doesn't have an operating piston or rod, the gases vent right into the reciver, the the Ball powder produced far more carbon build-up than the flake type powder. When a round is chambered the extractor catches in the extraction groove, this raises the extractor in the bolt, when the gases vent the carbon begain to build up between the extractor and the bolt, at the same time the carbon was building up in the chamber so it became harder to extracted the spent cartridge case till the extractor slipped off the case extractor groove and left the spent case in the chamber, in the mean time the bolt has gone back and picked up a fresh round and jammed it into the spent case. Now the trooper has a missfire and pulls the charging handle to the rear and the live round falls lose in the reciver because the extractor wasn't gripping the groove on the fresh round...Now you must remove the magzine and shake the lose round out and then run a cleaning rod down the bore to knock the spent case out of the chamber..only one problem, No cleaning rod! And you now have a single shot rifle, beside each dead Marine on hill 881 was a jammed M16...Oh ya, I was on the M16 test program ran by the Marine Corps in 1977.
What made it even sadder was troops didn't at the time know what was wrong with the ammo, they knew it was the ammo but not which was bad and which was good. so there ended up two groups of thought, the blue primer and the red primer, at this time both a red and blue colored primer sealer was being used on the base of the cartridges. Because of this some troops thought the red primer sealer was the bad ammo, at the same time there was "blue primer" is the bad ammo group and the road sides were litered with 5.56mm rounds with both primer colors.
One more thing, at one time 5.56mm NATO was the same cartridge as 223 Rem and most of your AR-15s are chambered for 223 Rem, you can order the AR-15 chambered for 5.56mm NATO or 223Rem, My AR-15 is chambered for 223 Rem and I do not fire 5.56mm NATO in it, there is also a chambering that is for both cartridges. The standard 5.56mm NATO of today produses much higher pressure and should not be fired in a rifle chambered for 223 Rem.
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:25 am
Post subject: Re: off topic Vietnam

WELCOME 'OLE TOP'.....!!!

Glad you could make it over.


_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
oldtop
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 17, 2006
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:52 pm
Post subject: Re: off topic Vietnam

Dontos.....you get that pig up and running yet?
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:46 pm
Post subject: Re: off topic Vietnam

Running? yup.... completed? Close......REAL CLOSE!!

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:53 pm
Post subject: Re: off topic Vietnam

Hi Old Top!

Good to see you have findly PCS'ed over to the new site.

When you have some time, check out the "Stryker weapons system picture..." item.

Starting about half down is some discussion about moving the M2 HB on the M48 outside of the cupola and why that was done. I'm beting you have some good insight into why the Marines did that.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Cloudy
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 06, 2006
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:53 pm
Post subject: Re: off topic Vietnam

- oldtop
To help with the problem the troops were given a printed page put out by Colt Fire Arms stating that this was the first "self-cleaning" rifle!


Amazing. This would be an interesting read and a great curio because I don't believe that there is such a thing 40 years later. What an incredibly cheeky thing to claim! Smile
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:14 pm
Post subject: Re: off topic Vietnam

- Cloudy
- oldtop
To help with the problem the troops were given a printed page put out by Colt Fire Arms stating that this was the first "self-cleaning" rifle!


Amazing. This would be an interesting read and a great curio because I don't believe that there is such a thing 40 years later. What an incredibly cheeky thing to claim! )
After dealing with a 'continuious cleaning oven' a few years back I think even my wife would see through the claim of a 'self cleaning rifle'

Give the troops a printed page. Yea right. I still remember getting backorder receipts instead of long johns, gloves and a field jacket liner my first winter on the flightline. The paper receipts did me a lot of good that winter.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
SHAWN
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:53 pm
Post subject: Re: off topic Vietnam

hey bob, those receipts were at least softer than the issue t.p.

okay, one of you fellas tell me-- i am not able to link to pics in this quick reply?
well, anyway,

roy, i have pics of the AR15 in a gallery i posted at this site here.
the bore and chamber are chromed. the bolt is a bolt that will work with the forward assist (non technical term-- has the machined slash/rachet marks on the starboard side). it has the early upper and lower receivers, and a birdcage flash suppressor (early f.s. was the 3-prong f.s.) what folks consider the pitch fork for getting tangled in everything!
i believe it has the 1:10 (or is it the 1:12?) twist barrel. oh, i dont think i will have a problem with the rifle, i am not using it under the same conditions as the when the weapon had been introduced.

i will keep looking for more early combat reports for the AR15. i found hal moore's aar from lz x-ray.

interesting to note that many of the problems had been acknowledged and remedies were being made to correct the issues as the rifles were being fielded (1964, 1965). as someone else mentioned, knowledge of malfunctions, etc. haunted the weapon even after the problems were corrected.
many features which would go into the M16A1 were being added to the rifle... if you look at the pics from the 7th cav (1st air cav) when they initially deployed in late 1965, they have the 16's with "mixed" receivers, early lowers, with an upper that has the forward assist...

anyway, ah, i have found this new site to be really nice. once i get in here and start navigating and using this site it is no problem...

shawn
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
oldtop
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 17, 2006
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:37 pm
Post subject: Re: off topic Vietnam

Back in 68 (2nd trip to Nam) I inherited my self-propelled gun Arty Baty's armory, there were stacks of M16s on the floor ( if you put wepons in racks the shell splinter from in-coming would chew them in a heartbeat, we had 2 to 3 M16s a week damaged by shell fire...there wasn't a thing in the Baty area that didn't have a shell fragment hole in it including the Admin clerk's in and out basket..the splinters seemed to seek of sleepingbags so when you went to your hardback after a shelling the air was full of feathers ) . Some M16s had the flashhidders mods (birdcage type) some with the prog type. about mid June we turned all M16s in for M16A1s.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 2 of 3
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum