±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 514
Total: 514
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Your Account
05: Home
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Downloads
14: Community Forums
15: Photo Gallery
16: Photo Gallery
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Downloads
23: Community Forums
24: Photo Gallery
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Photo Gallery
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Home
31: Home
32: Search
33: Home
34: Community Forums
35: Photo Gallery
36: Community Forums
37: CPGlang
38: Community Forums
39: Photo Gallery
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Photo Gallery
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Downloads
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Downloads
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Downloads
61: Community Forums
62: Home
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Photo Gallery
66: Your Account
67: Community Forums
68: CPGlang
69: Member Screenshots
70: News Archive
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Photo Gallery
76: Community Forums
77: Your Account
78: Photo Gallery
79: Community Forums
80: Home
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: CPGlang
85: Community Forums
86: Photo Gallery
87: Community Forums
88: Downloads
89: Home
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Your Account
93: Community Forums
94: Your Account
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Photo Gallery
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Downloads
103: Community Forums
104: Photo Gallery
105: Community Forums
106: Statistics
107: Photo Gallery
108: Member Screenshots
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Your Account
113: Community Forums
114: Photo Gallery
115: Photo Gallery
116: Community Forums
117: Downloads
118: Photo Gallery
119: Downloads
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Photo Gallery
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Photo Gallery
127: Community Forums
128: Home
129: Community Forums
130: Downloads
131: Your Account
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Home
135: Downloads
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Home
140: Statistics
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Home
145: Your Account
146: Member Screenshots
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Downloads
150: Photo Gallery
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Photo Gallery
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Statistics
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Home
165: Downloads
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: CPGlang
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Home
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Photo Gallery
178: CPGlang
179: Downloads
180: Photo Gallery
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: News
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Downloads
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Photo Gallery
197: Community Forums
198: Photo Gallery
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Home
204: Community Forums
205: Home
206: Downloads
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: News
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Photo Gallery
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Home
217: Downloads
218: Community Forums
219: News
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Photo Gallery
226: Statistics
227: Community Forums
228: Photo Gallery
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Photo Gallery
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Downloads
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Statistics
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Photo Gallery
251: Community Forums
252: Photo Gallery
253: Photo Gallery
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Photo Gallery
257: Photo Gallery
258: Community Forums
259: Photo Gallery
260: Community Forums
261: Photo Gallery
262: Photo Gallery
263: Member Screenshots
264: Home
265: Photo Gallery
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Photo Gallery
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Photo Gallery
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Photo Gallery
288: Community Forums
289: Member Screenshots
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: CPGlang
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Home
298: Community Forums
299: Member Screenshots
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Your Account
303: Downloads
304: Photo Gallery
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: Photo Gallery
308: Photo Gallery
309: Photo Gallery
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Home
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Home
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Home
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Photo Gallery
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Home
335: CPGlang
336: Photo Gallery
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Photo Gallery
342: Photo Gallery
343: Photo Gallery
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Statistics
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Photo Gallery
350: Home
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Photo Gallery
355: CPGlang
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Member Screenshots
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Photo Gallery
367: Community Forums
368: Home
369: Photo Gallery
370: Your Account
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Photo Gallery
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Photo Gallery
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Photo Gallery
386: Photo Gallery
387: Community Forums
388: Photo Gallery
389: Photo Gallery
390: Photo Gallery
391: Home
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Home
398: Photo Gallery
399: Member Screenshots
400: Community Forums
401: Photo Gallery
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: Photo Gallery
405: Photo Gallery
406: Home
407: Photo Gallery
408: Community Forums
409: Home
410: Photo Gallery
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Photo Gallery
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Home
419: Photo Gallery
420: Photo Gallery
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Home
424: Community Forums
425: Photo Gallery
426: Downloads
427: Downloads
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Statistics
432: Photo Gallery
433: Community Forums
434: Photo Gallery
435: Community Forums
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Home
439: Home
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Photo Gallery
446: Photo Gallery
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Search
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Member Screenshots
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Photo Gallery
463: Community Forums
464: Photo Gallery
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Photo Gallery
468: Photo Gallery
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Downloads
474: Your Account
475: Community Forums
476: Photo Gallery
477: Downloads
478: Community Forums
479: Downloads
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Downloads
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Photo Gallery
494: Community Forums
495: Home
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Photo Gallery
501: Downloads
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Photo Gallery
506: Photo Gallery
507: Photo Gallery
508: Community Forums
509: Photo Gallery
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Ah, I have discovered a relatively simple identification cue to tell the difference between an FSED XM1 and an LRIP or later Abrams...

If the lower, rear part of the turret has a vertical "slab" (my word) - like on this one (see also Hunnicutt's Abrams p 200) - its an FSED XM1.



LRIP & later Abrams dont have that vertical slab - see this pic & Hunnicutt's Abrams p206.



So the Abrams at the Fort Hood East Gate is an FSED XM1 - one of only 11 built. However, it appears that Operational Test III (OT-III) at Fort Hood (ie 2-5 Cav, etc) used LRIP, not FSED, tanks (see Hunnicutt's Abrams, p 202-203). Although FSED Abrams were tested at Fort Bliss during OT-II...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:08 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

So I'm to assume that this is a relatively rare M1? Any one know what became of the other eleven? And I'm still curious as to what the stampings on the side skirts stood for.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:10 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Yes, its pretty rare. Its a "true" XM1. XM1s include the original XM1 competitor vehicle (the turret exists, not sure what happened to the hull), and the 11 Full-Scale Engineering Development (FSED) pilot vehicles (PV).

PV1 is in front of the Patton Museum at Fort Knox
PV4 has the Chrysler competitor turret on it for some reason & at least was in storage at TACOM in Warren, MI
PV11 was used for live-fire testing & may or may not still exist "behind the fence" at APG...

There's another "XM1" at TACOM.

The Fort Campbell "XM1" could be FSED PVs...

The APG "XM1" is probably an LRIP vehicle - these were sometimes called XM1s as well...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:28 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

How do you determine which tank is 1,2,3, or so on?

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:00 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- SFC_Jeff_Button
How do you determine which tank is 1,2,3, or so on?


Jeff

Research, Research, Research! Also a little luck that someone has documented it in print!!!

Thank goodness for Hunnicutt's indepth work. It really helps provide a sound basis for most armor related, historical information and data. (I'm sure most on this DG will atest to...)

Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:59 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Yes, but... Hunnicutt's purpose was to explain the development & fielding of a particular tank or weapon system. This means that individual pilots or prototypes (pictures, RNs, SNs, etc) are occasionally mentioned... But in general, the fates or disposition of all pilots or prototypes are not given, and the location of stampings is certainly not. That being said, they're a great reference!

But in cases like these, we need to fill in the details. Unfortunately, I dont have a good way yet to determine the PV number or SN externally yet.

Don, any chance you could poke around the Patton Museum's XM1 next time you're there?

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:05 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- Neil_Baumgardner
Yes, but... Hunnicutt's purpose was to explain the development & fielding of a particular tank or weapon system. This means that individual pilots or prototypes (pictures, RNs, SNs, etc) are occasionally mentioned... But in general, the fates or disposition of all pilots or prototypes are not given, and the location of stampings is certainly not. That being said, they're a great reference!

But in cases like these, we need to fill in the details. Unfortunately, I dont have a good way yet to determine the PV number or SN externally yet.

Don, any chance you could poke around the Patton Museum's XM1 next time you're there?

Neil


Cool

Did it yesterday, but a 'tad' too cold (temps in 20's) to do any real 'hunting'. No stamp tags on skirts, no obvious markings. I'll do a little more indepth snooping next time.

Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:34 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

I would ask the museum directors but they cant even keep track of where their Shermans are, (seriously, I had to tell them what motor pool they were in and they still cant find a field piece). Their anxious for me to assist them but they don't want to do much for me. I think Dontos is the "key" to our research at this time. I will try and get back to the XM-1 when I get some free time and look her over again.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2066
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Jeff,
Those stamps on that XM-1 should be ID marks for the Ballistic skirts. C/A should mean "Chobham Armor". Remember that when the M-1 was first made it was not designed with the new armor by either Chrysler or GM. It was later demonstrated to the US and was adopted for the program. From what I remember the pilot vehicles were the first to be equipped with this material. That's why the turret's appearance changed so much from the prototype. Can't bend it or shape it, had to made in slab form. The Chrysler skirts were marginal protection and served also to reduce dirt ingestion of the turbine engine

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Geoff_walden
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- SFC_Jeff_Button
How do you determine which tank is 1,2,3, or so on?


Some of the PVs had numbers stamped into the hull in various places. I recall that one of the tanks that was at TACOM had PV4 stamped into the hull. The Fort Knox example has no numbers at all, AFAIR, which leads to the question "how do we know it's PV1?" Unless museum records prove that, I don't really know.

Jeff, I'd be real interested to hear if you can find anything on that Hood tank that shows which PV it is - it is definitely a rare tank! I'd guess only about 5 or 6 of the original 11 still exist, and most of those were modified from their original configuration, due to testing improvements. An example of this is the "paddle wheel" track retainer on the sprocket. This was installed on all (I think) 11 PVs as a result of the initial OT-II test at Fort Bliss, when the tanks threw track a lot. The second part of OT-II was at Fort Knox, using the paddle wheels (and other improvements).

Other than that, this Hood PV looks pretty original, on the outside. It still has the ammo feed chute for the TC's 50-cal, the old-style MRS held on by a bunch of bolts, the original front skirts with circular recesses for the latches, etc.

As Neil mentioned, the tanks used for OT-III at Hood and later in initial fielding were the first 110 LRIP tanks, not the PVs. These were also technically XM-1s, since the tank had not yet been type-classified. I was involved in this fielding, and I do not recall ever seeing a PV at Hood at that time (I think I would have noticed, being kinda "into" the tank history at that time).

I will try to find my notes and photos from the early 80s. Honestly, I can't remember now if the LRIP tank S/Ns started with a letter, or just the number. They were all made at Lima, so maybe it was just a number without the L. But I do remember refering to L8 at that time - L8 was not fielded, but was used for various tests (it had an under-armor APU added to the left-rear sponson). I wonder whatever happened to L8 ... it had so many mods, I doubt if it was ever fielded to a unit ... not in that configuration, anyway (if anyone finds an early M1 with an odd box with louvers sticking at the back at the upper left rear, it's L8).

My notes from way back when also told where all the PVs were, at that time. Will try to dig that stuff out.

Geoff Walden
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- Geoff_walden
- SFC_Jeff_Button
How do you determine which tank is 1,2,3, or so on?


Some of the PVs had numbers stamped into the hull in various places. I recall that one of the tanks that was at TACOM had PV4 stamped into the hull. The Fort Knox example has no numbers at all, AFAIR, which leads to the question "how do we know it's PV1?" Unless museum records prove that, I don't really know.


Geoff, do you remember where PV4 was stamped?

As for the Knox example, we at least know its a PV since it has the vertical "slab" on the rear turret - maybe Don can chime in as to what the museum records say... And I thought I had found "something" on it that proved it was PV1...





Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- Geoff_walden

My notes from way back when also told where all the PVs were, at that time. Will try to dig that stuff out.


Geoff, if you could find that list it could be a goldmine! Next though, since the Chrysler turret got put on PV4.... What happened to the original chassis?

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:56 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

I guess a return trip to the "PV" M1 is in order for tomorrow! I'll climb up on it and all over the top of the hull and turret. Any mark I find I will photograph. I will also re-stick my arm inside and try to get a few different shots of the interior.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:08 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- SFC_Jeff_Button
I guess a return trip to the "PV" M1 is in order for tomorrow! I'll climb up on it and all over the top of the hull and turret. Any mark I find I will photograph. I will also re-stick my arm inside and try to get a few different shots of the interior.


Jeff

There is usually a data plate on the interior turret wall at the TC's position. If you can get a shot of it (if one is there) you might be able to get some information.

I'll dig around and see if I can find an image of its location, and post it a little later.

Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:43 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- SFC_Jeff_Button
I guess a return trip to the "PV" M1 is in order for tomorrow! I'll climb up on it and all over the top of the hull and turret. Any mark I find I will photograph. I will also re-stick my arm inside and try to get a few different shots of the interior.


Here is a reference image for the turret data plate.



Don

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 5 of 6
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum