±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 213
Total: 213
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Photo Gallery
02: Community Forums
03: Home
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Home
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Downloads
12: Community Forums
13: Photo Gallery
14: Community Forums
15: News Archive
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Photo Gallery
19: Home
20: Photo Gallery
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Photo Gallery
24: Community Forums
25: Member Screenshots
26: Photo Gallery
27: Community Forums
28: Photo Gallery
29: Photo Gallery
30: Community Forums
31: Home
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Home
35: Community Forums
36: Photo Gallery
37: Home
38: Photo Gallery
39: Community Forums
40: Home
41: Home
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Your Account
45: Photo Gallery
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Home
52: Community Forums
53: Photo Gallery
54: Member Screenshots
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Photo Gallery
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Statistics
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Statistics
66: Home
67: Home
68: Community Forums
69: Downloads
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Downloads
76: Home
77: Photo Gallery
78: Member Screenshots
79: Home
80: Community Forums
81: Photo Gallery
82: Community Forums
83: Downloads
84: Photo Gallery
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Photo Gallery
89: Home
90: Community Forums
91: Treasury
92: Community Forums
93: Home
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Home
97: Home
98: Community Forums
99: Your Account
100: Downloads
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Photo Gallery
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Photo Gallery
111: Community Forums
112: Home
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Photo Gallery
116: Community Forums
117: Your Account
118: Community Forums
119: Home
120: Member Screenshots
121: Home
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Statistics
125: Photo Gallery
126: Community Forums
127: Home
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Member Screenshots
132: Photo Gallery
133: Home
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Photo Gallery
140: Photo Gallery
141: Community Forums
142: Photo Gallery
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Photo Gallery
147: Community Forums
148: Photo Gallery
149: Community Forums
150: News Archive
151: Statistics
152: Photo Gallery
153: Community Forums
154: Member Screenshots
155: Community Forums
156: Photo Gallery
157: Home
158: Photo Gallery
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Home
163: Community Forums
164: Photo Gallery
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Photo Gallery
169: Community Forums
170: News Archive
171: Statistics
172: Home
173: Home
174: Community Forums
175: Home
176: Community Forums
177: Photo Gallery
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Downloads
182: Home
183: Downloads
184: Community Forums
185: Statistics
186: Community Forums
187: Photo Gallery
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Home
192: News Archive
193: Home
194: Home
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Home
199: Photo Gallery
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Home
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Home
210: Community Forums
211: Downloads
212: Photo Gallery
213: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M113 #1?????
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SHAWN
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:05 am
Post subject: M113 #1?????

okay, now i have lost it! the MC ranks the M113 as the "the greatest infantry fighting vehicle of all time"!!!
what the F!!! it is a refrigerator!! it is made out of aluminum!!!
it is a taxi!!

what is wrong with these people.... let alone the fact that the narrator cant properly pronounce any of the foreign vehicle names...
sr
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
toadmanstankpictures
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 704

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:18 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

Did Sparky write the script for the show?

_________________
Chris "toadman" Hughes
www.toadmanstankpictures.com
www.cafepress.com/toad...ksandstuff
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:38 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

- SHAWN
okay, now i have lost it! the MC ranks the M113 as the "the greatest infantry fighting vehicle of all time"!!!
what the F!!! it is a refrigerator!! it is made out of aluminum!!!
it is a taxi!!

what is wrong with these people.... let alone the fact that the narrator cant properly pronounce any of the foreign vehicle names...
sr


Take a deep breath....

I've seen the show, and as I remember its presentation, it made sense.

Of course I make this statement, eventhough SPARKY's attempts to have the (unnamed) M113 placed on a pedistol and require all humanity to bow down to Lt Gen Gavins invention. (apoligies to the memory of Gen Gavin)

What do you expect from The History Channel? Besides those shows are quite dated, and the Abrams has been aquitted of its former declared non-relevance, the M113 (along with tons of add on armor) continues to serve a mission which no other vehicle is capable of doing due to its available quantity.

Very few Main Battle Tank's IN CURRENT SERVICE have endured the level of combat service that the Abrams has, and maintained its place as one of the Best in the modern era. The Challanger II is perhaps the only other to keep its name untarnished. Oh, and perhaps the Leo I can be considered too, most other MBT's are either un-tested in combat or have failed miserably.

JMHO
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:05 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

- Dontos
- SHAWN
okay, now i have lost it! the MC ranks the M113 as the "the greatest infantry fighting vehicle of all time"!!!
what the F!!! it is a refrigerator!! it is made out of aluminum!!!
it is a taxi!!

what is wrong with these people.... let alone the fact that the narrator cant properly pronounce any of the foreign vehicle names...
sr


Take a deep breath....

I've seen the show, and as I remember its presentation, it made sense.

Of course I make this statement, eventhough SPARKY's attempts to have the (unnamed) M113 placed on a pedistol and require all humanity to bow down to Lt Gen Gavins invention. (apoligies to the memory of Gen Gavin)

What do you expect from The History Channel? Besides those shows are quite dated, and the Abrams has been aquitted of its former declared non-relevance, the M113 (along with tons of add on armor) continues to serve a mission which no other vehicle is capable of doing due to its available quantity.

Very few Main Battle Tank's IN CURRENT SERVICE have endured the level of combat service that the Abrams has, and maintained its place as one of the Best in the modern era. The Challanger II is perhaps the only other to keep its name untarnished. Oh, and perhaps the Leo I can be considered too, most other MBT's are either un-tested in combat or have failed miserably.

JMHO
Don


What Don said...and....

While the term "Infantry Fighting Vehicle" is a little broad, it has fulfilled that mission on occasion, and not done badly at it.

More importantly, I'd submit that with over 80,000 built, and with it built under license in numerous countries, been in service with many more countries, and filled so many roles in so many variants for so long that it's not at all a stretch to consider it as a "winner" in this context. Consider a vehicle in it's historical context, not what's the best on the market on the most recent date, that's the test of any item. It certainly isn't the best IFV today, but was that the question?
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:41 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

What were the other vehicles in the Top 10? I'm curious where the BTR and BRDM series placed as well as the M-3 Halftrack and the SdKfz251 as well as the Stryker and the Bradley.

If that segment ran true to form they got points for longevity, combat power, innovation etc. Any multigenerational ranking is tough but I find myself comparing where x ranked compared to y when I see these shows

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:53 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

Yeah, despite the name, it was really top 10 APCs - considering IFVs as a "subclass" (which some do). Me and my friend Kevin had a big debate over IFV vs APC when the show first ran...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:03 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

where I have a disagreement with this series (Tanks, ships ,bombers, rifles, etc) is that it uses a quantity factor as the basis for deciding a quality factor. If an item is absolutely the best of it's kind, it is just that, whether they produced a single one or 15 million. By that criterion an old four stack, flush deck US destroyer is a greater warship that an Iowa class battleship. To me,the top ten should be the ten best qualativly not numericaly

my two cents

Jeff "Piney" Lewis
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Sabot
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Kentucky
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:20 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

I'd classify the 113 as an APC, not an IFV. Even the Bradley or BMP are truly "light tanks" that can carry infantry inside. While both series enable some fighting by infantrymen inside, their main purpose is to deliver the infantry to a point on the battlefield and then provide direct fire support to the dismounts.

_________________
RobG
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:45 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

- piney
where I have a disagreement with this series (Tanks, ships ,bombers, rifles, etc) is that it uses a quantity factor as the basis for deciding a quality factor. If an item is absolutely the best of it's kind, it is just that, whether they produced a single one or 15 million. By that criterion an old four stack, flush deck US destroyer is a greater warship that an Iowa class battleship. To me,the top ten should be the ten best qualativly not numericaly

my two cents

Jeff "Piney" Lewis


I'm gpoing to disagree with you here. "Quantity has a quality all it's own"

Within a class of weapons the ability to deploy enough items so that it is effective is important. The Sherman/T34 v Panther is a very good example of this. While neither one can match the Panther one on one they were able to compete because both could be produced in volume and deployed and supported so that they were always available in useful quantities while Panthers were never available in enough quantity to keep the units up to strength

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:50 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

- bsmart
- piney
where I have a disagreement with this series (Tanks, ships ,bombers, rifles, etc) is that it uses a quantity factor as the basis for deciding a quality factor. If an item is absolutely the best of it's kind, it is just that, whether they produced a single one or 15 million. By that criterion an old four stack, flush deck US destroyer is a greater warship that an Iowa class battleship. To me,the top ten should be the ten best qualativly not numericaly

my two cents

Jeff "Piney" Lewis


I'm gpoing to disagree with you here. "Quantity has a quality all it's own"

Within a class of weapons the ability to deploy enough items so that it is effective is important. The Sherman/T34 v Panther is a very good example of this. While neither one can match the Panther one on one they were able to compete because both could be produced in volume and deployed and supported so that they were always available in useful quantities while Panthers were never available in enough quantity to keep the units up to strength



To add to Bob's point...
And how long were Panthers in service? With how many countries? Built under license where (whether in it's original designation or in a close copy with slight modification and a "name change")? Embraced by how many other services (voluntarily, as opposed to, say, some Warsaw Pact examples) for a variety of roles because of it's versatility and longevity?
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Hellfish6
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
Posts: 151
Location: Orlando
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:02 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

IIRC this show is about the most 'successful' vehicles, not the best. In that sense, yeah - you could very easily argue that the M113 is the most successful APC. How many wars has it been in? How many countries use it? How many were made. It may be mediocre as an AFV, but it's still wildly successful.
Back to top
View user's profile
SHAWN
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:58 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

yes dontos, thank you, take a deep breathe....
that is all just part of the generation of power before one exhales and puts your fist thru your opponents chest...

no, you are right. but as i had mentioned, it is a show for entertainment value above all else... still gets me aggravated (MHO aside).

i can agree the vehicle has had a very successful life and has done very well. it doesnt fit into the number 1 slot using their contradictory criteria for the basis of their show. the high marks they gave the BMP (survivability, striking power/armament, protection! easily produced) had the M113 beat from the get go... the BMP was like #6. the universal carrier was 7 or 8(?), the M3 halftrack 9(?)...
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Hellfish6
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
Posts: 151
Location: Orlando
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

I'd never consider the BMP, especially the BMP-1 to be a successful AFV. Revolutionary, yes - to an extent. It's got a piss poor armament system - basically a 73mm RPG with terrible accuracy, an AT-3 system that hardly ever worked properly, let alone effectively, had fuel tanks in the door, magnesium armor... the list goes on. I certainly wouldn't call it an effective or successful vehicle. I bet if you go back in time and check out the kill/loss ratios for BMPs you'd find that they've died a whole lot more than they've killed, even discounting the hundreds that the US and UK have wrecked over time.
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:53 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

Hi Shawn! Hi Folks!

- SHAWN

okay, now i have lost it! the MC ranks the M113 as the "the greatest infantry fighting vehicle of all time"!!!
it is a refrigerator!!
it is made out of aluminum!!!
it is a taxi!!


It is a refrigerator? All amored vehicles without good heaters are refrigerators.

It is made out of aluminum? So what?
The aluminum is equal to a level of steel protection that the Army was looking for when that vehicle was developed.
They found that the aluminum vehicle was something like 600 pounds lighter that one made out of steel with an equal level of protection. Total weight was very important when that vehicle was layout.

It is a taxi? I would not call my ACAVs from Vietnam taxis. The term Infantry Fighting vehicle does fit that mission profile.

Taxi is a doctrine/mission on how a vehicle is used.

Would I rate the M113 as the world's best IFV? Maybe not, but it would be near the top if it was not number one.

My 2 cents,
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:38 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Shawn! Hi Folks!

- SHAWN

okay, now i have lost it! the MC ranks the M113 as the "the greatest infantry fighting vehicle of all time"!!!
it is a refrigerator!!
it is made out of aluminum!!!
it is a taxi!!


It is a refrigerator? All amored vehicles without good heaters are refrigerators.

It is made out of aluminum? So what?
The aluminum is equal to a level of steel protection that the Army was looking for when that vehicle was developed.
They found that the aluminum vehicle was something like 600 pounds lighter that one made out of steel with an equal level of protection. Total weight was very important when that vehicle was layout.

It is a taxi? I would not call my ACAVs from Vietnam taxis. The term Infantry Fighting vehicle does fit that mission profile.

Taxi is a doctrine/mission on how a vehicle is used.

Would I rate the M113 as the world's best IFV? Maybe not, but it would be near the top if it was not number one.
My 2 cents,
Sgt, Scouts Out!


What Roy said, but with emphasis on the part in bold, I'd amend/add to say it was all the more remarkable because it wasn't designed to be an Infantry Fighting Vehicle, but was adapted to be one in it's prime, and served that mission with distinction.

Yes, we have some some bias with that regard, but we have some personal experience on which to base it. If I'm not mistaken, Roy came to the M113 as a Cav Scout, but I came to it with the background of a tanker, which gave me even more grounds of skepticism, if you will. I was impressed with the way the vehicle fulfilled it's role and was completely comfortable with it (and I might point out that I was offered command of an M551 Sheridan when I reported to Phu Loi, but declined it in favor of an M113, though I'd never been on one before).
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum