±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 654
Total: 654
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Photo Gallery
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Your Account
09: Search
10: Community Forums
11: Photo Gallery
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Home
15: Photo Gallery
16: Home
17: Photo Gallery
18: Community Forums
19: Photo Gallery
20: Your Account
21: News
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Photo Gallery
33: Community Forums
34: Photo Gallery
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Photo Gallery
38: Home
39: Photo Gallery
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Photo Gallery
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: News
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: CPGlang
54: Photo Gallery
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: CPGlang
60: Your Account
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Downloads
64: Community Forums
65: Home
66: Home
67: Downloads
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Home
73: Community Forums
74: Home
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Downloads
80: Community Forums
81: Photo Gallery
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Home
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Your Account
90: Home
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Home
95: Community Forums
96: CPGlang
97: Statistics
98: Community Forums
99: Downloads
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Photo Gallery
104: Community Forums
105: Home
106: Home
107: Home
108: Community Forums
109: Tell a Friend
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Downloads
115: Photo Gallery
116: Photo Gallery
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Photo Gallery
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Photo Gallery
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Downloads
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Photo Gallery
131: Home
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Photo Gallery
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Home
140: Your Account
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Member Screenshots
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Home
148: CPGlang
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Home
157: Photo Gallery
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Photo Gallery
161: Photo Gallery
162: Photo Gallery
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Downloads
166: Community Forums
167: CPGlang
168: Photo Gallery
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Photo Gallery
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Home
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Member Screenshots
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Downloads
186: Community Forums
187: Photo Gallery
188: News
189: Home
190: Home
191: Photo Gallery
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Downloads
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Downloads
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Home
206: Community Forums
207: Home
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Photo Gallery
211: News
212: Community Forums
213: Photo Gallery
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Photo Gallery
219: Home
220: Photo Gallery
221: Photo Gallery
222: Community Forums
223: Downloads
224: Community Forums
225: Photo Gallery
226: Home
227: Photo Gallery
228: Home
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Photo Gallery
233: Community Forums
234: Photo Gallery
235: Home
236: Community Forums
237: Photo Gallery
238: Photo Gallery
239: Community Forums
240: Your Account
241: Community Forums
242: Home
243: Community Forums
244: Photo Gallery
245: Photo Gallery
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Home
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Downloads
255: Home
256: CPGlang
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: CPGlang
260: Home
261: Community Forums
262: Photo Gallery
263: Photo Gallery
264: Community Forums
265: Photo Gallery
266: Community Forums
267: CPGlang
268: Photo Gallery
269: Community Forums
270: CPGlang
271: Photo Gallery
272: CPGlang
273: Community Forums
274: Photo Gallery
275: Photo Gallery
276: Photo Gallery
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Home
280: Photo Gallery
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Your Account
284: Downloads
285: Photo Gallery
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Downloads
289: Photo Gallery
290: Community Forums
291: Home
292: Photo Gallery
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: CPGlang
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Photo Gallery
300: Photo Gallery
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Home
304: News Archive
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: News Archive
308: Community Forums
309: Photo Gallery
310: Community Forums
311: Photo Gallery
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Your Account
315: Community Forums
316: Photo Gallery
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Photo Gallery
322: Home
323: Community Forums
324: Photo Gallery
325: Your Account
326: Photo Gallery
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Downloads
331: Community Forums
332: Member Screenshots
333: Photo Gallery
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Statistics
337: Photo Gallery
338: Community Forums
339: Home
340: Home
341: Community Forums
342: Home
343: News Archive
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Photo Gallery
349: Photo Gallery
350: Downloads
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Your Account
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Photo Gallery
363: Home
364: Your Account
365: Home
366: Home
367: Community Forums
368: Home
369: Member Screenshots
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Home
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Home
387: Home
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Home
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Home
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Home
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Photo Gallery
409: Statistics
410: Photo Gallery
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Photo Gallery
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: CPGlang
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Photo Gallery
421: Home
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: News Archive
428: Home
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Home
435: Member Screenshots
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Photo Gallery
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Photo Gallery
454: Home
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Photo Gallery
459: Community Forums
460: Downloads
461: Search
462: Home
463: Home
464: Photo Gallery
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Photo Gallery
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Downloads
475: Community Forums
476: Home
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Photo Gallery
484: Home
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Photo Gallery
489: Community Forums
490: Downloads
491: Community Forums
492: Photo Gallery
493: Community Forums
494: Home
495: Home
496: Community Forums
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Downloads
500: Community Forums
501: Your Account
502: Downloads
503: Downloads
504: Community Forums
505: Home
506: Home
507: CPGlang
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Photo Gallery
514: Community Forums
515: Photo Gallery
516: News Archive
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Home
520: Community Forums
521: Photo Gallery
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Your Account
528: Home
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Photo Gallery
533: Photo Gallery
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Home
538: Photo Gallery
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Photo Gallery
543: Home
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Photo Gallery
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Photo Gallery
554: CPGlang
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Your Account
558: Community Forums
559: Community Forums
560: Community Forums
561: Photo Gallery
562: Your Account
563: Community Forums
564: Photo Gallery
565: Community Forums
566: Home
567: Photo Gallery
568: Home
569: Community Forums
570: Photo Gallery
571: Community Forums
572: Photo Gallery
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Member Screenshots
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Home
581: Community Forums
582: CPGlang
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Downloads
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Community Forums
589: Downloads
590: Community Forums
591: Home
592: Home
593: Photo Gallery
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Photo Gallery
597: Member Screenshots
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Photo Gallery
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Photo Gallery
610: Home
611: Downloads
612: Community Forums
613: Photo Gallery
614: Downloads
615: Photo Gallery
616: Community Forums
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Member Screenshots
620: Community Forums
621: Your Account
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: Photo Gallery
627: Community Forums
628: Community Forums
629: Community Forums
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: Home
634: Community Forums
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Community Forums
638: Photo Gallery
639: Community Forums
640: Community Forums
641: Community Forums
642: Community Forums
643: Community Forums
644: Community Forums
645: Photo Gallery
646: Community Forums
647: Photo Gallery
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Statistics
651: Community Forums
652: Community Forums
653: Community Forums
654: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
AFV garage sale
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
blair
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:31 am
Post subject: AFV garage sale

Found a link to a interesting story here:
www.thelocal.de/10441/20080302/

Here's the article

For sale: Nazi German tanks

Published: 2 Mar 08 9:30 CET
Online: www.thelocal.de/10441/

Former Nazi ally Bulgaria plans to auction German tanks from the Second World War.

* German soldiers ate sausage made from their own blood (2 Mar 08)
* Treasure hunters halt search for Nazi loot (29 Feb 08)
* Neo-Nazi crime soars at Saxon schools (29 Feb 08)

Bulgaria is selling German tanks from World War II for about €100,000. This is the starting price, according to the Sunday edition of Bulgarian daily Trud in Sofia. The Bulgarian Defence Ministry plans to auction some 22 German Wehrmacht tanks and assault guns. The best-preserved pieces will be offered to museums before auctions begin.

Bulgaria was allied with Germany during the Second World War, and the German military sent the tanks to the country during that time. The Bulgarian army later used the same weapons to fight Nazi Germany until its surrender in May 1945. At the end of the 1950s, the tanks that weren’t scrapped were cemented into a barrier to protect the formerly communist Eastern Bloc country on the Turkish border.

Now that both Bulgaria and Turkey are NATO members, the tanks are no longer necessary to protect the border.

In December 2007, Bulgarian authorities arrested two German nationals and a Bulgarian army officer who allegedly stole a German Wehrmacht tank and attempted to steal a second one near the southeastern town of Jambul in Bulgaria.
Back to top
View user's profile
Rikard_Hufschmied
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 458
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:18 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...pic&t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.

_________________
Frustra Nate Vive Devincere
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:40 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

Hi Folks!

We can only hope that most will find good homes, be restored as best is possible, and placed on display for all to see.

Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:05 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- Rikard_Hufschmied
This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...amp;t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.


Any Jagdpanzer IV is rare, as there are only 6 of them left including this one. Another one is under a bridge in Poland (condition unknown?) and of the remaining 4, one is a pre-production vehicle (ex-Saumur, now Munster). The one in Thun is a late production item with 80mm front armour, so only 2 other early production vehicles with 60mm armour exists in Samur and Munster (belonging to WTS IIRC). The Bulgarian vehicle is earlier than both these and the only one with a drivers MG slot, in this case covered with a flat steel disc. This disc was only mounted in the period between the decision to drop the slot and the time the steel works began to make front hulls without it.

So it is a very rare vehicle with some unique features and probably no worse than the StuGs in Finland, which were, IIRC standard StuG III Gs. So if rarity is reflected in the price, this should be a good deal more expensive than the Finnish StuGs of which one went at 185.000 Euro.

As for the Panzer IVs, if they auction them all off at once, the best ones might get a good price but the rest.......... Like you, I doubt it.

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:01 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

When Finland offered the 3 StuGs for sale, it didn't seem that others would be offered in the near future, that's why they were bought for these quite high prices. Now, at least 7 StuGs and 15 Pz IV are offered, so the rarity of the offer decrease and the starting price is, I think, too high. I think that some of them will not be sold. The big question is ; what will they do with them?

The other big question : what about the incomplete bottom hulls + Panzer IV with turret modified for an MG ? Will they be recovered too?

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:49 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

What's the forums take on this one?



Not so evident in this shot, but judging from other shots of the same vehicle while still buried (in this thread: www.scalemodels-bg.com...start=285) suggest that it is one of the 142 StuG IIIs built on Panzer III Ausf. M hulls delivered from MIAG in 1943. It has the off-set splash guard in front of the drivers visor, Panzer III hatches and welded add-on armour.

I dont recall seeing any other surviving vehicles of this type?

EDIT: Possibly the StuG III G in Rena, Norway is of the same type?

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:23 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- clausb
- Rikard_Hufschmied
This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...amp;t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.


Any Jagdpanzer IV is rare, as there are only 6 of them left including this one. Another one is under a bridge in Poland (condition unknown?) and of the remaining 4, one is a pre-production vehicle (ex-Saumur, now Munster). The one in Thun is a late production item with 80mm front armour, so only 2 other early production vehicles with 60mm armour exists in Samur and Munster (belonging to WTS IIRC). The Bulgarian vehicle is earlier than both these and the only one with a drivers MG slot, in this case covered with a flat steel disc. This disc was only mounted in the period between the decision to drop the slot and the time the steel works began to make front hulls without it.


cbo


Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:32 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- bsmart
Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?


Aberdeen does not have a Jagdpanzer IV as far as I know. They do have a Panzer IV/70 V (i.e. a Jagdpanzer IV hull with the 7,5cm L/70 gun) which is a rare vehicle in its own right (5 remains?).

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:44 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- clausb
- bsmart
Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?


Aberdeen does not have a Jagdpanzer IV as far as I know. They do have a Panzer IV/70 V (i.e. a Jagdpanzer IV hull with the 7,5cm L/70 gun) which is a rare vehicle in its own right (5 remains?).

cbo


I had thought that the the L70 gun was just a variation of the JPz IV (much as the Pz 3 has shorter and longer 50mm guns in different versions)
Calling it a Panzer IV/70 implies to me that it is a turreted vehicle I always thought it was a Jagdpanzer IV/70

But Yes the one at Aberdeen has the L70 gun

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:09 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- bsmart
I had thought that the the L70 gun was just a variation of the JPz IV (much as the Pz 3 has shorter and longer 50mm guns in different versions)
Calling it a Panzer IV/70 implies to me that it is a turreted vehicle I always thought it was a Jagdpanzer IV/70


I'm just calling it what the Germans were calling it Smile

I was under the impression that the designation "Panzer IV/70" was well established in the armour community? It is he name used in my old 1993 edition of Chamberlain & Doyles "Encyclopedia of German Tanks.."

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:26 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdpanzer_IV

Well, the designations can be discussed but I think that Wikipedia is a reliable source. Is it not? If not, I should maybe modify this document :

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Panzer_IV_variants.pdf

"Variants

* Jagdpanzer IV with 7.5 cm PaK 39 L/43: a small number of these were built as the preproduction series.
* Jagdpanzer IV with 7.5 cm PaK 39 L/48, official name Sturmgeschütz neuer Art mit 7.5 cm PaK L/48 auf Fahrgestell PzKpfw IV. Some 780 or so were produced in 1944.
* Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) (Sd.Kfz.162/1) was one of two variants armed with the PaK 42 L/70 gun. Some 940 were built in 1944 and 1945. The (V) stands for the builder, Vomag.
* Jagdpanzer IV/70 (A) (Sd.Kfz.162/1) was the other PaK 42 L/70 armed Jagdpanzer IV. This differed in that its superstructure was mounted directly on the original Panzer IV chassis and as such lacked the sharp edged nose of the other variants. Only 278 were built during 1944 and 1945. The (A) stands for the builder, Alkett."

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:40 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

By the way :

1 Jagdpanzer IV unknown model, under a bridge in Poland
5 Jagdpanzer IV L/48
6 Jagdpanzer IV L/70

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:48 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- the_shadock
By the way :

1 Jagdpanzer IV unknown model, under a bridge in Poland
5 Jagdpanzer IV L/48
6 Jagdpanzer IV L/70


Well, if we are going to be anal about it Wink

1 Jagdpanzer IV or Panzer IV/70 unknown model
5 Jagdpanzer IV (Munster 0-serie, Munster, Saumur, Thun, Bulgaria)
5 Panzer IV/70 V (Sofia, Kubinka, APG, Ft. Knox, Ottawa)
1 Panzer IV/70 A (Saumur)

As for the name, people can call them what they want, I just use the designations I've come to know and use from the litterature I've read over the years Smile

The reality is that even the German army used different designations at different times during the life-cycle of a given vehicle, particularily when it came to anything StuG-like due to the on going struggle between the Generalinspectorate of Armoured Troops and that of the artillery over the right to control production, organisation etc. on this type of vehicle.

Hence, the Jagdpanzer IV was, at various times in its life:

Leichte Panzerjäger (auf Fgst.Pz.Kpf.Wg. IV)
Panzerjäger (auf Fahrgestell Panzer IV)
7,5cm Pz.Jäg. 39 (L/48) IV
Sturmgeschütz neue Art
Leichte Panzerjäger IV
...and finally in September 1944, just as production was running out, Jagdpanzer IV

There are a number of variants on those as well.

Spielberger lists about 15 different name variants for the Panzer IV/70 V, including:

Sturmgeschütz mit 7,5cm L/70
Panzer IV lang (V)
Leichte Panzerjäger (Vomag) mit 7,5cm PaK 42
Panzer IV/70 V
...and even in one case, plainly "Jagdpanzer IV"

Similar stuff with the Panzer IV/70 A.

But neither is apparently refered to as "Jagdpanzer IV/70" by anyone at any time.

As for the Wiki article, it links to both Panzerworld and Achtung Panzer who both uses the Jagdpanzer IV - Panzer IV/70 designation. Why the author of the article chooses to elaborate on the cumbersome "official name" of "Sturmgeschütz neuer Art mit 7.5 cm PaK L/48 auf Fahrgestell PzKpfw IV" and then ignores the designations used by his own references is anybodys guess Smile

Whether you should change the names you use in your much appreciated documents about surviving tanks is none of my business, but it seems to me that any serious book about German armour is using Jagdpanzer IV for the short-gunned version and Panzer IV/70 for the two long-gunned versions (i.e. Spielberger, Chamberlain & Doyle, Jentz etc.)

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:41 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

Well,

I always had problems with official designations of such vehicles, and to be sincere, I use some designations which makes it clear which vehicle it is (for instance Jagdpanzer IV L/70 = a Jagdpanzer IV with a L/70 gun).
I try to refer as much as possible to Wikipedia, as it is a free and easy accessible encyclopedia. I don't have Panzer litterature at all. I decided to specialize not on tank designations and characteristics but on their location and status only.

As did Bob Smart, I'm quite perplex about a designation like "Panzer IV/70" which refers to a tank and not a tank destroyer for me. (and I think it is the same for the general public who has a minimal interest for German armour).

But I'm open to a discussion about the designation which should appear on my documents, and if I should replace the ones currently appearing by more accurate ones. Let me know.

Pierre-Olivier

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:43 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

The problem with Wikipedia is there is no editorial control or vetting of facts.

I'll defer to Chamberlain & Doyle. By the way I checked George Forty's German Tanks of World War Two which agrees with the name Panzer IV/70. I don't see an explanation as to why but Chamberlain says they were first issued to the 105th & 106th Independent panzer Brigades. I suspect it may have been a propaganda based decision to name it that, but it does appear that Panzer IV/70 was the name

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])


Last edited by bsmart on Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum