±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 734
Total: 734
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Home
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Photo Gallery
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Photo Gallery
11: Community Forums
12: Member Screenshots
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Home
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Photo Gallery
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Downloads
33: Member Screenshots
34: Community Forums
35: Home
36: Community Forums
37: Home
38: Photo Gallery
39: CPGlang
40: Community Forums
41: News Archive
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Photo Gallery
49: Downloads
50: Community Forums
51: Downloads
52: Home
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Photo Gallery
58: Community Forums
59: Home
60: Your Account
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Home
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Home
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Photo Gallery
75: Photo Gallery
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Home
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Home
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Photo Gallery
88: Home
89: Community Forums
90: Home
91: Your Account
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Photo Gallery
96: Home
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Home
101: Downloads
102: Home
103: Photo Gallery
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Your Account
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Downloads
116: Home
117: Community Forums
118: Photo Gallery
119: Home
120: Community Forums
121: Home
122: Community Forums
123: Photo Gallery
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Home
130: Photo Gallery
131: Photo Gallery
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Home
141: Community Forums
142: CPGlang
143: Community Forums
144: Home
145: Home
146: CPGlang
147: Downloads
148: Home
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Photo Gallery
152: Community Forums
153: Home
154: Home
155: Photo Gallery
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Home
162: Community Forums
163: Member Screenshots
164: Home
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Home
168: Home
169: News
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Home
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Home
178: Community Forums
179: Photo Gallery
180: Home
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Photo Gallery
186: Home
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Photo Gallery
191: News Archive
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: CPGlang
196: Member Screenshots
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Photo Gallery
204: Photo Gallery
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Home
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: CPGlang
215: Community Forums
216: Home
217: Community Forums
218: Downloads
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Home
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Home
225: Photo Gallery
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Downloads
229: Home
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Photo Gallery
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Photo Gallery
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Home
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Member Screenshots
250: Community Forums
251: Downloads
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Downloads
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Home
263: Downloads
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Photo Gallery
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Photo Gallery
276: Downloads
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Home
281: Photo Gallery
282: Community Forums
283: Home
284: Photo Gallery
285: Downloads
286: Community Forums
287: Downloads
288: Home
289: Downloads
290: Home
291: Photo Gallery
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Photo Gallery
295: Community Forums
296: Photo Gallery
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Photo Gallery
301: Home
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Photo Gallery
306: Photo Gallery
307: Home
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Photo Gallery
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Home
316: Home
317: Photo Gallery
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Home
321: Photo Gallery
322: Community Forums
323: Home
324: Downloads
325: Community Forums
326: Photo Gallery
327: Photo Gallery
328: Community Forums
329: Your Account
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Photo Gallery
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Home
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Your Account
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Home
344: Photo Gallery
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Home
353: Community Forums
354: Photo Gallery
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Photo Gallery
369: Community Forums
370: Home
371: News Archive
372: Community Forums
373: Photo Gallery
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Photo Gallery
378: Home
379: Photo Gallery
380: Statistics
381: News Archive
382: Downloads
383: Community Forums
384: Your Account
385: Home
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Photo Gallery
391: Community Forums
392: Photo Gallery
393: Photo Gallery
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Member Screenshots
400: Photo Gallery
401: Home
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: Your Account
405: Community Forums
406: Statistics
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Photo Gallery
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Home
417: Community Forums
418: Home
419: Downloads
420: Home
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Photo Gallery
429: Photo Gallery
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Photo Gallery
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Photo Gallery
455: Home
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Photo Gallery
461: Community Forums
462: Member Screenshots
463: Your Account
464: Home
465: Community Forums
466: Home
467: Photo Gallery
468: Home
469: Photo Gallery
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Photo Gallery
476: Home
477: Photo Gallery
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Photo Gallery
483: Home
484: Community Forums
485: Photo Gallery
486: Photo Gallery
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Photo Gallery
490: Downloads
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Home
496: Member Screenshots
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Photo Gallery
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Home
506: Home
507: Community Forums
508: Downloads
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Photo Gallery
514: Home
515: Home
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: CPGlang
519: Community Forums
520: Home
521: Photo Gallery
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Home
528: Community Forums
529: Downloads
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Photo Gallery
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Member Screenshots
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: News Archive
541: Community Forums
542: Photo Gallery
543: Community Forums
544: Photo Gallery
545: Community Forums
546: News
547: Downloads
548: Community Forums
549: Home
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Home
555: Community Forums
556: Your Account
557: CPGlang
558: Photo Gallery
559: Photo Gallery
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Community Forums
564: News Archive
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Photo Gallery
568: Home
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Photo Gallery
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Photo Gallery
579: Home
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Home
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Home
586: Community Forums
587: Photo Gallery
588: CPGlang
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Home
592: Your Account
593: Home
594: Home
595: Community Forums
596: Home
597: Downloads
598: Home
599: Home
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Downloads
607: Community Forums
608: Downloads
609: Community Forums
610: CPGlang
611: Photo Gallery
612: Community Forums
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Home
616: Community Forums
617: Home
618: Photo Gallery
619: Community Forums
620: Home
621: Photo Gallery
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: Photo Gallery
626: Community Forums
627: Photo Gallery
628: Community Forums
629: Community Forums
630: Community Forums
631: Photo Gallery
632: CPGlang
633: Community Forums
634: Community Forums
635: Member Screenshots
636: Community Forums
637: Community Forums
638: Community Forums
639: Community Forums
640: Community Forums
641: Community Forums
642: Community Forums
643: CPGlang
644: Community Forums
645: Members List
646: Community Forums
647: Home
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Your Account
651: Community Forums
652: Photo Gallery
653: Community Forums
654: Community Forums
655: Photo Gallery
656: Community Forums
657: Community Forums
658: Community Forums
659: Community Forums
660: Photo Gallery
661: Downloads
662: Community Forums
663: Community Forums
664: Community Forums
665: Photo Gallery
666: Community Forums
667: Community Forums
668: Community Forums
669: Community Forums
670: Photo Gallery
671: Community Forums
672: Home
673: Home
674: Community Forums
675: Community Forums
676: Photo Gallery
677: Community Forums
678: Community Forums
679: Community Forums
680: Community Forums
681: Community Forums
682: Community Forums
683: Community Forums
684: Community Forums
685: Photo Gallery
686: Your Account
687: Photo Gallery
688: Community Forums
689: Community Forums
690: Community Forums
691: Photo Gallery
692: Community Forums
693: Community Forums
694: Community Forums
695: Community Forums
696: Community Forums
697: Community Forums
698: Home
699: Photo Gallery
700: Community Forums
701: Photo Gallery
702: Community Forums
703: Home
704: Home
705: Home
706: Community Forums
707: Your Account
708: Photo Gallery
709: Home
710: Community Forums
711: Community Forums
712: Your Account
713: Home
714: Community Forums
715: Home
716: Photo Gallery
717: Community Forums
718: Community Forums
719: Community Forums
720: Community Forums
721: Home
722: CPGlang
723: Community Forums
724: Community Forums
725: Community Forums
726: Community Forums
727: Community Forums
728: Community Forums
729: Community Forums
730: Community Forums
731: Community Forums
732: Community Forums
733: Community Forums
734: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
AFV garage sale
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
blair
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:31 am
Post subject: AFV garage sale

Found a link to a interesting story here:
www.thelocal.de/10441/20080302/

Here's the article

For sale: Nazi German tanks

Published: 2 Mar 08 9:30 CET
Online: www.thelocal.de/10441/

Former Nazi ally Bulgaria plans to auction German tanks from the Second World War.

* German soldiers ate sausage made from their own blood (2 Mar 08)
* Treasure hunters halt search for Nazi loot (29 Feb 08)
* Neo-Nazi crime soars at Saxon schools (29 Feb 08)

Bulgaria is selling German tanks from World War II for about €100,000. This is the starting price, according to the Sunday edition of Bulgarian daily Trud in Sofia. The Bulgarian Defence Ministry plans to auction some 22 German Wehrmacht tanks and assault guns. The best-preserved pieces will be offered to museums before auctions begin.

Bulgaria was allied with Germany during the Second World War, and the German military sent the tanks to the country during that time. The Bulgarian army later used the same weapons to fight Nazi Germany until its surrender in May 1945. At the end of the 1950s, the tanks that weren’t scrapped were cemented into a barrier to protect the formerly communist Eastern Bloc country on the Turkish border.

Now that both Bulgaria and Turkey are NATO members, the tanks are no longer necessary to protect the border.

In December 2007, Bulgarian authorities arrested two German nationals and a Bulgarian army officer who allegedly stole a German Wehrmacht tank and attempted to steal a second one near the southeastern town of Jambul in Bulgaria.
Back to top
View user's profile
Rikard_Hufschmied
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 458
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:18 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...pic&t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.

_________________
Frustra Nate Vive Devincere
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:40 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

Hi Folks!

We can only hope that most will find good homes, be restored as best is possible, and placed on display for all to see.

Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:05 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- Rikard_Hufschmied
This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...amp;t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.


Any Jagdpanzer IV is rare, as there are only 6 of them left including this one. Another one is under a bridge in Poland (condition unknown?) and of the remaining 4, one is a pre-production vehicle (ex-Saumur, now Munster). The one in Thun is a late production item with 80mm front armour, so only 2 other early production vehicles with 60mm armour exists in Samur and Munster (belonging to WTS IIRC). The Bulgarian vehicle is earlier than both these and the only one with a drivers MG slot, in this case covered with a flat steel disc. This disc was only mounted in the period between the decision to drop the slot and the time the steel works began to make front hulls without it.

So it is a very rare vehicle with some unique features and probably no worse than the StuGs in Finland, which were, IIRC standard StuG III Gs. So if rarity is reflected in the price, this should be a good deal more expensive than the Finnish StuGs of which one went at 185.000 Euro.

As for the Panzer IVs, if they auction them all off at once, the best ones might get a good price but the rest.......... Like you, I doubt it.

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:01 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

When Finland offered the 3 StuGs for sale, it didn't seem that others would be offered in the near future, that's why they were bought for these quite high prices. Now, at least 7 StuGs and 15 Pz IV are offered, so the rarity of the offer decrease and the starting price is, I think, too high. I think that some of them will not be sold. The big question is ; what will they do with them?

The other big question : what about the incomplete bottom hulls + Panzer IV with turret modified for an MG ? Will they be recovered too?

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:49 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

What's the forums take on this one?



Not so evident in this shot, but judging from other shots of the same vehicle while still buried (in this thread: www.scalemodels-bg.com...start=285) suggest that it is one of the 142 StuG IIIs built on Panzer III Ausf. M hulls delivered from MIAG in 1943. It has the off-set splash guard in front of the drivers visor, Panzer III hatches and welded add-on armour.

I dont recall seeing any other surviving vehicles of this type?

EDIT: Possibly the StuG III G in Rena, Norway is of the same type?

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:23 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- clausb
- Rikard_Hufschmied
This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...amp;t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.


Any Jagdpanzer IV is rare, as there are only 6 of them left including this one. Another one is under a bridge in Poland (condition unknown?) and of the remaining 4, one is a pre-production vehicle (ex-Saumur, now Munster). The one in Thun is a late production item with 80mm front armour, so only 2 other early production vehicles with 60mm armour exists in Samur and Munster (belonging to WTS IIRC). The Bulgarian vehicle is earlier than both these and the only one with a drivers MG slot, in this case covered with a flat steel disc. This disc was only mounted in the period between the decision to drop the slot and the time the steel works began to make front hulls without it.


cbo


Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:32 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- bsmart
Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?


Aberdeen does not have a Jagdpanzer IV as far as I know. They do have a Panzer IV/70 V (i.e. a Jagdpanzer IV hull with the 7,5cm L/70 gun) which is a rare vehicle in its own right (5 remains?).

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:44 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- clausb
- bsmart
Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?


Aberdeen does not have a Jagdpanzer IV as far as I know. They do have a Panzer IV/70 V (i.e. a Jagdpanzer IV hull with the 7,5cm L/70 gun) which is a rare vehicle in its own right (5 remains?).

cbo


I had thought that the the L70 gun was just a variation of the JPz IV (much as the Pz 3 has shorter and longer 50mm guns in different versions)
Calling it a Panzer IV/70 implies to me that it is a turreted vehicle I always thought it was a Jagdpanzer IV/70

But Yes the one at Aberdeen has the L70 gun

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:09 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- bsmart
I had thought that the the L70 gun was just a variation of the JPz IV (much as the Pz 3 has shorter and longer 50mm guns in different versions)
Calling it a Panzer IV/70 implies to me that it is a turreted vehicle I always thought it was a Jagdpanzer IV/70


I'm just calling it what the Germans were calling it Smile

I was under the impression that the designation "Panzer IV/70" was well established in the armour community? It is he name used in my old 1993 edition of Chamberlain & Doyles "Encyclopedia of German Tanks.."

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:26 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdpanzer_IV

Well, the designations can be discussed but I think that Wikipedia is a reliable source. Is it not? If not, I should maybe modify this document :

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Panzer_IV_variants.pdf

"Variants

* Jagdpanzer IV with 7.5 cm PaK 39 L/43: a small number of these were built as the preproduction series.
* Jagdpanzer IV with 7.5 cm PaK 39 L/48, official name Sturmgeschütz neuer Art mit 7.5 cm PaK L/48 auf Fahrgestell PzKpfw IV. Some 780 or so were produced in 1944.
* Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) (Sd.Kfz.162/1) was one of two variants armed with the PaK 42 L/70 gun. Some 940 were built in 1944 and 1945. The (V) stands for the builder, Vomag.
* Jagdpanzer IV/70 (A) (Sd.Kfz.162/1) was the other PaK 42 L/70 armed Jagdpanzer IV. This differed in that its superstructure was mounted directly on the original Panzer IV chassis and as such lacked the sharp edged nose of the other variants. Only 278 were built during 1944 and 1945. The (A) stands for the builder, Alkett."

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:40 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

By the way :

1 Jagdpanzer IV unknown model, under a bridge in Poland
5 Jagdpanzer IV L/48
6 Jagdpanzer IV L/70

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:48 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- the_shadock
By the way :

1 Jagdpanzer IV unknown model, under a bridge in Poland
5 Jagdpanzer IV L/48
6 Jagdpanzer IV L/70


Well, if we are going to be anal about it Wink

1 Jagdpanzer IV or Panzer IV/70 unknown model
5 Jagdpanzer IV (Munster 0-serie, Munster, Saumur, Thun, Bulgaria)
5 Panzer IV/70 V (Sofia, Kubinka, APG, Ft. Knox, Ottawa)
1 Panzer IV/70 A (Saumur)

As for the name, people can call them what they want, I just use the designations I've come to know and use from the litterature I've read over the years Smile

The reality is that even the German army used different designations at different times during the life-cycle of a given vehicle, particularily when it came to anything StuG-like due to the on going struggle between the Generalinspectorate of Armoured Troops and that of the artillery over the right to control production, organisation etc. on this type of vehicle.

Hence, the Jagdpanzer IV was, at various times in its life:

Leichte Panzerjäger (auf Fgst.Pz.Kpf.Wg. IV)
Panzerjäger (auf Fahrgestell Panzer IV)
7,5cm Pz.Jäg. 39 (L/48) IV
Sturmgeschütz neue Art
Leichte Panzerjäger IV
...and finally in September 1944, just as production was running out, Jagdpanzer IV

There are a number of variants on those as well.

Spielberger lists about 15 different name variants for the Panzer IV/70 V, including:

Sturmgeschütz mit 7,5cm L/70
Panzer IV lang (V)
Leichte Panzerjäger (Vomag) mit 7,5cm PaK 42
Panzer IV/70 V
...and even in one case, plainly "Jagdpanzer IV"

Similar stuff with the Panzer IV/70 A.

But neither is apparently refered to as "Jagdpanzer IV/70" by anyone at any time.

As for the Wiki article, it links to both Panzerworld and Achtung Panzer who both uses the Jagdpanzer IV - Panzer IV/70 designation. Why the author of the article chooses to elaborate on the cumbersome "official name" of "Sturmgeschütz neuer Art mit 7.5 cm PaK L/48 auf Fahrgestell PzKpfw IV" and then ignores the designations used by his own references is anybodys guess Smile

Whether you should change the names you use in your much appreciated documents about surviving tanks is none of my business, but it seems to me that any serious book about German armour is using Jagdpanzer IV for the short-gunned version and Panzer IV/70 for the two long-gunned versions (i.e. Spielberger, Chamberlain & Doyle, Jentz etc.)

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:41 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

Well,

I always had problems with official designations of such vehicles, and to be sincere, I use some designations which makes it clear which vehicle it is (for instance Jagdpanzer IV L/70 = a Jagdpanzer IV with a L/70 gun).
I try to refer as much as possible to Wikipedia, as it is a free and easy accessible encyclopedia. I don't have Panzer litterature at all. I decided to specialize not on tank designations and characteristics but on their location and status only.

As did Bob Smart, I'm quite perplex about a designation like "Panzer IV/70" which refers to a tank and not a tank destroyer for me. (and I think it is the same for the general public who has a minimal interest for German armour).

But I'm open to a discussion about the designation which should appear on my documents, and if I should replace the ones currently appearing by more accurate ones. Let me know.

Pierre-Olivier

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:43 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

The problem with Wikipedia is there is no editorial control or vetting of facts.

I'll defer to Chamberlain & Doyle. By the way I checked George Forty's German Tanks of World War Two which agrees with the name Panzer IV/70. I don't see an explanation as to why but Chamberlain says they were first issued to the 105th & 106th Independent panzer Brigades. I suspect it may have been a propaganda based decision to name it that, but it does appear that Panzer IV/70 was the name

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])


Last edited by bsmart on Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum