±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 556
Total: 556
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Member Screenshots
03: Photo Gallery
04: Community Forums
05: Your Account
06: Your Account
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Photo Gallery
10: Downloads
11: Photo Gallery
12: Community Forums
13: Photo Gallery
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: News Archive
17: Home
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Member Screenshots
21: Community Forums
22: Downloads
23: Photo Gallery
24: Photo Gallery
25: Home
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Photo Gallery
32: Your Account
33: Photo Gallery
34: Member Screenshots
35: CPGlang
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Downloads
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Downloads
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Photo Gallery
51: Downloads
52: Photo Gallery
53: Community Forums
54: Member Screenshots
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: News Archive
58: Statistics
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Photo Gallery
64: Home
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Photo Gallery
68: Community Forums
69: Home
70: Home
71: Community Forums
72: Home
73: Community Forums
74: News Archive
75: Community Forums
76: Home
77: Community Forums
78: Downloads
79: Member Screenshots
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Your Account
84: Statistics
85: Community Forums
86: Photo Gallery
87: Community Forums
88: Downloads
89: Community Forums
90: CPGlang
91: Member Screenshots
92: Photo Gallery
93: CPGlang
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Photo Gallery
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: CPGlang
102: Photo Gallery
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Photo Gallery
106: Community Forums
107: Photo Gallery
108: Community Forums
109: Photo Gallery
110: Home
111: Downloads
112: Photo Gallery
113: Downloads
114: Downloads
115: Member Screenshots
116: Home
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Your Account
123: Photo Gallery
124: Home
125: Statistics
126: Community Forums
127: Home
128: Downloads
129: Home
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Downloads
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Photo Gallery
137: Community Forums
138: Member Screenshots
139: Community Forums
140: Photo Gallery
141: Photo Gallery
142: Member Screenshots
143: Community Forums
144: Home
145: Community Forums
146: Photo Gallery
147: Photo Gallery
148: Home
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Your Account
152: Downloads
153: Community Forums
154: Home
155: Community Forums
156: Home
157: Community Forums
158: Your Account
159: Member Screenshots
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Home
164: Home
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Home
174: Community Forums
175: Your Account
176: Community Forums
177: Statistics
178: Community Forums
179: Photo Gallery
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Statistics
184: Community Forums
185: Photo Gallery
186: Home
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Home
191: Community Forums
192: Photo Gallery
193: Home
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Home
197: Community Forums
198: Home
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Photo Gallery
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: News Archive
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Photo Gallery
216: Community Forums
217: Home
218: Photo Gallery
219: Home
220: News
221: Photo Gallery
222: Home
223: Home
224: Photo Gallery
225: Photo Gallery
226: CPGlang
227: Home
228: Home
229: Your Account
230: Community Forums
231: Home
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Home
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Search
238: Member Screenshots
239: Community Forums
240: Home
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Home
244: Photo Gallery
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: Photo Gallery
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Photo Gallery
253: Home
254: Photo Gallery
255: Photo Gallery
256: Photo Gallery
257: Community Forums
258: Your Account
259: Community Forums
260: Photo Gallery
261: Home
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Photo Gallery
265: Community Forums
266: Home
267: Photo Gallery
268: Home
269: Community Forums
270: Home
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Statistics
279: Home
280: Community Forums
281: Home
282: Home
283: Photo Gallery
284: Community Forums
285: Your Account
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Photo Gallery
291: Home
292: Community Forums
293: Photo Gallery
294: Photo Gallery
295: Photo Gallery
296: Community Forums
297: Photo Gallery
298: Home
299: Community Forums
300: Home
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Community Forums
307: Member Screenshots
308: CPGlang
309: Community Forums
310: Downloads
311: Community Forums
312: Photo Gallery
313: Photo Gallery
314: Community Forums
315: Member Screenshots
316: CPGlang
317: Downloads
318: Community Forums
319: Photo Gallery
320: Photo Gallery
321: Community Forums
322: Photo Gallery
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: CPGlang
326: Photo Gallery
327: Community Forums
328: Photo Gallery
329: Community Forums
330: Home
331: Community Forums
332: Home
333: Downloads
334: Photo Gallery
335: Community Forums
336: Home
337: Home
338: CPGlang
339: Community Forums
340: Member Screenshots
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Home
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Downloads
348: Photo Gallery
349: Member Screenshots
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Home
358: Home
359: Community Forums
360: Statistics
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Photo Gallery
364: Community Forums
365: Home
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Photo Gallery
369: Photo Gallery
370: Home
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Home
378: Your Account
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Your Account
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Home
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: CPGlang
391: Home
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Downloads
396: Community Forums
397: Home
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Home
402: Community Forums
403: Photo Gallery
404: Community Forums
405: Home
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Home
412: Photo Gallery
413: Home
414: Home
415: Community Forums
416: Statistics
417: Photo Gallery
418: Photo Gallery
419: Community Forums
420: CPGlang
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Photo Gallery
427: Community Forums
428: Home
429: Community Forums
430: Downloads
431: Community Forums
432: Home
433: Home
434: Community Forums
435: Home
436: Home
437: Community Forums
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Home
447: Downloads
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Photo Gallery
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Home
458: Home
459: Photo Gallery
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Home
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Home
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Home
473: Community Forums
474: Your Account
475: Community Forums
476: Photo Gallery
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Downloads
480: Community Forums
481: CPGlang
482: Photo Gallery
483: Photo Gallery
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: CPGlang
487: Community Forums
488: Member Screenshots
489: Community Forums
490: Photo Gallery
491: Photo Gallery
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Home
495: Community Forums
496: Your Account
497: Home
498: Photo Gallery
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Home
502: Community Forums
503: Home
504: Community Forums
505: Your Account
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Member Screenshots
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Photo Gallery
512: Community Forums
513: Photo Gallery
514: Home
515: Your Account
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: Home
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Home
522: Downloads
523: Community Forums
524: Home
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Home
528: Community Forums
529: Photo Gallery
530: Community Forums
531: Your Account
532: Your Account
533: Home
534: Home
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Downloads
544: Photo Gallery
545: Community Forums
546: Statistics
547: Photo Gallery
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Photo Gallery
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
AFV garage sale
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
blair
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:31 am
Post subject: AFV garage sale

Found a link to a interesting story here:
www.thelocal.de/10441/20080302/

Here's the article

For sale: Nazi German tanks

Published: 2 Mar 08 9:30 CET
Online: www.thelocal.de/10441/

Former Nazi ally Bulgaria plans to auction German tanks from the Second World War.

* German soldiers ate sausage made from their own blood (2 Mar 08)
* Treasure hunters halt search for Nazi loot (29 Feb 08)
* Neo-Nazi crime soars at Saxon schools (29 Feb 08)

Bulgaria is selling German tanks from World War II for about €100,000. This is the starting price, according to the Sunday edition of Bulgarian daily Trud in Sofia. The Bulgarian Defence Ministry plans to auction some 22 German Wehrmacht tanks and assault guns. The best-preserved pieces will be offered to museums before auctions begin.

Bulgaria was allied with Germany during the Second World War, and the German military sent the tanks to the country during that time. The Bulgarian army later used the same weapons to fight Nazi Germany until its surrender in May 1945. At the end of the 1950s, the tanks that weren’t scrapped were cemented into a barrier to protect the formerly communist Eastern Bloc country on the Turkish border.

Now that both Bulgaria and Turkey are NATO members, the tanks are no longer necessary to protect the border.

In December 2007, Bulgarian authorities arrested two German nationals and a Bulgarian army officer who allegedly stole a German Wehrmacht tank and attempted to steal a second one near the southeastern town of Jambul in Bulgaria.
Back to top
View user's profile
Rikard_Hufschmied
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 458
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:18 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...pic&t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.

_________________
Frustra Nate Vive Devincere
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:40 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

Hi Folks!

We can only hope that most will find good homes, be restored as best is possible, and placed on display for all to see.

Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:05 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- Rikard_Hufschmied
This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...amp;t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.


Any Jagdpanzer IV is rare, as there are only 6 of them left including this one. Another one is under a bridge in Poland (condition unknown?) and of the remaining 4, one is a pre-production vehicle (ex-Saumur, now Munster). The one in Thun is a late production item with 80mm front armour, so only 2 other early production vehicles with 60mm armour exists in Samur and Munster (belonging to WTS IIRC). The Bulgarian vehicle is earlier than both these and the only one with a drivers MG slot, in this case covered with a flat steel disc. This disc was only mounted in the period between the decision to drop the slot and the time the steel works began to make front hulls without it.

So it is a very rare vehicle with some unique features and probably no worse than the StuGs in Finland, which were, IIRC standard StuG III Gs. So if rarity is reflected in the price, this should be a good deal more expensive than the Finnish StuGs of which one went at 185.000 Euro.

As for the Panzer IVs, if they auction them all off at once, the best ones might get a good price but the rest.......... Like you, I doubt it.

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:01 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

When Finland offered the 3 StuGs for sale, it didn't seem that others would be offered in the near future, that's why they were bought for these quite high prices. Now, at least 7 StuGs and 15 Pz IV are offered, so the rarity of the offer decrease and the starting price is, I think, too high. I think that some of them will not be sold. The big question is ; what will they do with them?

The other big question : what about the incomplete bottom hulls + Panzer IV with turret modified for an MG ? Will they be recovered too?

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:49 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

What's the forums take on this one?



Not so evident in this shot, but judging from other shots of the same vehicle while still buried (in this thread: www.scalemodels-bg.com...start=285) suggest that it is one of the 142 StuG IIIs built on Panzer III Ausf. M hulls delivered from MIAG in 1943. It has the off-set splash guard in front of the drivers visor, Panzer III hatches and welded add-on armour.

I dont recall seeing any other surviving vehicles of this type?

EDIT: Possibly the StuG III G in Rena, Norway is of the same type?

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:23 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- clausb
- Rikard_Hufschmied
This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...amp;t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.


Any Jagdpanzer IV is rare, as there are only 6 of them left including this one. Another one is under a bridge in Poland (condition unknown?) and of the remaining 4, one is a pre-production vehicle (ex-Saumur, now Munster). The one in Thun is a late production item with 80mm front armour, so only 2 other early production vehicles with 60mm armour exists in Samur and Munster (belonging to WTS IIRC). The Bulgarian vehicle is earlier than both these and the only one with a drivers MG slot, in this case covered with a flat steel disc. This disc was only mounted in the period between the decision to drop the slot and the time the steel works began to make front hulls without it.


cbo


Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:32 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- bsmart
Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?


Aberdeen does not have a Jagdpanzer IV as far as I know. They do have a Panzer IV/70 V (i.e. a Jagdpanzer IV hull with the 7,5cm L/70 gun) which is a rare vehicle in its own right (5 remains?).

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:44 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- clausb
- bsmart
Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?


Aberdeen does not have a Jagdpanzer IV as far as I know. They do have a Panzer IV/70 V (i.e. a Jagdpanzer IV hull with the 7,5cm L/70 gun) which is a rare vehicle in its own right (5 remains?).

cbo


I had thought that the the L70 gun was just a variation of the JPz IV (much as the Pz 3 has shorter and longer 50mm guns in different versions)
Calling it a Panzer IV/70 implies to me that it is a turreted vehicle I always thought it was a Jagdpanzer IV/70

But Yes the one at Aberdeen has the L70 gun

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:09 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- bsmart
I had thought that the the L70 gun was just a variation of the JPz IV (much as the Pz 3 has shorter and longer 50mm guns in different versions)
Calling it a Panzer IV/70 implies to me that it is a turreted vehicle I always thought it was a Jagdpanzer IV/70


I'm just calling it what the Germans were calling it Smile

I was under the impression that the designation "Panzer IV/70" was well established in the armour community? It is he name used in my old 1993 edition of Chamberlain & Doyles "Encyclopedia of German Tanks.."

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:26 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdpanzer_IV

Well, the designations can be discussed but I think that Wikipedia is a reliable source. Is it not? If not, I should maybe modify this document :

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Panzer_IV_variants.pdf

"Variants

* Jagdpanzer IV with 7.5 cm PaK 39 L/43: a small number of these were built as the preproduction series.
* Jagdpanzer IV with 7.5 cm PaK 39 L/48, official name Sturmgeschütz neuer Art mit 7.5 cm PaK L/48 auf Fahrgestell PzKpfw IV. Some 780 or so were produced in 1944.
* Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) (Sd.Kfz.162/1) was one of two variants armed with the PaK 42 L/70 gun. Some 940 were built in 1944 and 1945. The (V) stands for the builder, Vomag.
* Jagdpanzer IV/70 (A) (Sd.Kfz.162/1) was the other PaK 42 L/70 armed Jagdpanzer IV. This differed in that its superstructure was mounted directly on the original Panzer IV chassis and as such lacked the sharp edged nose of the other variants. Only 278 were built during 1944 and 1945. The (A) stands for the builder, Alkett."

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:40 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

By the way :

1 Jagdpanzer IV unknown model, under a bridge in Poland
5 Jagdpanzer IV L/48
6 Jagdpanzer IV L/70

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:48 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- the_shadock
By the way :

1 Jagdpanzer IV unknown model, under a bridge in Poland
5 Jagdpanzer IV L/48
6 Jagdpanzer IV L/70


Well, if we are going to be anal about it Wink

1 Jagdpanzer IV or Panzer IV/70 unknown model
5 Jagdpanzer IV (Munster 0-serie, Munster, Saumur, Thun, Bulgaria)
5 Panzer IV/70 V (Sofia, Kubinka, APG, Ft. Knox, Ottawa)
1 Panzer IV/70 A (Saumur)

As for the name, people can call them what they want, I just use the designations I've come to know and use from the litterature I've read over the years Smile

The reality is that even the German army used different designations at different times during the life-cycle of a given vehicle, particularily when it came to anything StuG-like due to the on going struggle between the Generalinspectorate of Armoured Troops and that of the artillery over the right to control production, organisation etc. on this type of vehicle.

Hence, the Jagdpanzer IV was, at various times in its life:

Leichte Panzerjäger (auf Fgst.Pz.Kpf.Wg. IV)
Panzerjäger (auf Fahrgestell Panzer IV)
7,5cm Pz.Jäg. 39 (L/48) IV
Sturmgeschütz neue Art
Leichte Panzerjäger IV
...and finally in September 1944, just as production was running out, Jagdpanzer IV

There are a number of variants on those as well.

Spielberger lists about 15 different name variants for the Panzer IV/70 V, including:

Sturmgeschütz mit 7,5cm L/70
Panzer IV lang (V)
Leichte Panzerjäger (Vomag) mit 7,5cm PaK 42
Panzer IV/70 V
...and even in one case, plainly "Jagdpanzer IV"

Similar stuff with the Panzer IV/70 A.

But neither is apparently refered to as "Jagdpanzer IV/70" by anyone at any time.

As for the Wiki article, it links to both Panzerworld and Achtung Panzer who both uses the Jagdpanzer IV - Panzer IV/70 designation. Why the author of the article chooses to elaborate on the cumbersome "official name" of "Sturmgeschütz neuer Art mit 7.5 cm PaK L/48 auf Fahrgestell PzKpfw IV" and then ignores the designations used by his own references is anybodys guess Smile

Whether you should change the names you use in your much appreciated documents about surviving tanks is none of my business, but it seems to me that any serious book about German armour is using Jagdpanzer IV for the short-gunned version and Panzer IV/70 for the two long-gunned versions (i.e. Spielberger, Chamberlain & Doyle, Jentz etc.)

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:41 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

Well,

I always had problems with official designations of such vehicles, and to be sincere, I use some designations which makes it clear which vehicle it is (for instance Jagdpanzer IV L/70 = a Jagdpanzer IV with a L/70 gun).
I try to refer as much as possible to Wikipedia, as it is a free and easy accessible encyclopedia. I don't have Panzer litterature at all. I decided to specialize not on tank designations and characteristics but on their location and status only.

As did Bob Smart, I'm quite perplex about a designation like "Panzer IV/70" which refers to a tank and not a tank destroyer for me. (and I think it is the same for the general public who has a minimal interest for German armour).

But I'm open to a discussion about the designation which should appear on my documents, and if I should replace the ones currently appearing by more accurate ones. Let me know.

Pierre-Olivier

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:43 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

The problem with Wikipedia is there is no editorial control or vetting of facts.

I'll defer to Chamberlain & Doyle. By the way I checked George Forty's German Tanks of World War Two which agrees with the name Panzer IV/70. I don't see an explanation as to why but Chamberlain says they were first issued to the 105th & 106th Independent panzer Brigades. I suspect it may have been a propaganda based decision to name it that, but it does appear that Panzer IV/70 was the name

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])


Last edited by bsmart on Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum