±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 738
Total: 738
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Downloads
03: Community Forums
04: Photo Gallery
05: Downloads
06: Photo Gallery
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Home
10: Photo Gallery
11: Home
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Home
17: Photo Gallery
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: CPGlang
26: Downloads
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Photo Gallery
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Downloads
34: Community Forums
35: Photo Gallery
36: Photo Gallery
37: Community Forums
38: Member Screenshots
39: Photo Gallery
40: Photo Gallery
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Photo Gallery
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Home
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Photo Gallery
51: Your Account
52: Community Forums
53: Home
54: Community Forums
55: Home
56: Photo Gallery
57: Community Forums
58: Photo Gallery
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Home
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Your Account
67: Community Forums
68: Home
69: Member Screenshots
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Member Screenshots
73: Photo Gallery
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: CPGlang
79: Photo Gallery
80: Home
81: Photo Gallery
82: Home
83: Community Forums
84: Home
85: Home
86: Home
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Home
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Photo Gallery
94: Home
95: Community Forums
96: Home
97: Member Screenshots
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: CPGlang
103: Photo Gallery
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Home
113: Community Forums
114: CPGlang
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Photo Gallery
124: Community Forums
125: Home
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Photo Gallery
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: CPGlang
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Home
139: Community Forums
140: Downloads
141: Community Forums
142: Home
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Home
147: Photo Gallery
148: Community Forums
149: Photo Gallery
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Photo Gallery
160: Community Forums
161: CPGlang
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Photo Gallery
168: Community Forums
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Member Screenshots
173: Photo Gallery
174: Community Forums
175: Photo Gallery
176: Community Forums
177: Your Account
178: Community Forums
179: News Archive
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Photo Gallery
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Downloads
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Photo Gallery
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Downloads
195: Community Forums
196: Photo Gallery
197: Photo Gallery
198: Community Forums
199: Home
200: Home
201: Community Forums
202: CPGlang
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Photo Gallery
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Member Screenshots
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Photo Gallery
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Member Screenshots
220: Home
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Downloads
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: CPGlang
230: Community Forums
231: Photo Gallery
232: Photo Gallery
233: Photo Gallery
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Your Account
243: Community Forums
244: Downloads
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: CPGlang
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Home
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Photo Gallery
259: Home
260: Community Forums
261: Photo Gallery
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Photo Gallery
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Photo Gallery
269: Community Forums
270: Home
271: Home
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: CPGlang
282: Community Forums
283: Home
284: Community Forums
285: Home
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Downloads
294: Community Forums
295: Home
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Photo Gallery
301: Photo Gallery
302: Community Forums
303: Home
304: Community Forums
305: Photo Gallery
306: Photo Gallery
307: Community Forums
308: CPGlang
309: CPGlang
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: CPGlang
315: Community Forums
316: CPGlang
317: Photo Gallery
318: Statistics
319: Community Forums
320: Downloads
321: Community Forums
322: Home
323: Photo Gallery
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Photo Gallery
328: Your Account
329: Community Forums
330: Photo Gallery
331: Community Forums
332: Photo Gallery
333: Home
334: Downloads
335: Community Forums
336: Downloads
337: CPGlang
338: CPGlang
339: Community Forums
340: Home
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Home
346: Community Forums
347: Photo Gallery
348: Photo Gallery
349: Community Forums
350: Your Account
351: Community Forums
352: CPGlang
353: Home
354: Community Forums
355: Photo Gallery
356: Photo Gallery
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Home
360: Community Forums
361: Home
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Home
366: Community Forums
367: News Archive
368: Downloads
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: CPGlang
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Home
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Home
387: Photo Gallery
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Home
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Photo Gallery
394: Community Forums
395: Photo Gallery
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Home
401: Community Forums
402: Photo Gallery
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Home
406: Member Screenshots
407: Downloads
408: Community Forums
409: Photo Gallery
410: Photo Gallery
411: Home
412: Photo Gallery
413: Community Forums
414: Home
415: Community Forums
416: Home
417: Photo Gallery
418: Home
419: Community Forums
420: News
421: Your Account
422: Statistics
423: Community Forums
424: News Archive
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Statistics
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Photo Gallery
436: Community Forums
437: Photo Gallery
438: CPGlang
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: CPGlang
442: Community Forums
443: CPGlang
444: Community Forums
445: Photo Gallery
446: Photo Gallery
447: Community Forums
448: Photo Gallery
449: Community Forums
450: Photo Gallery
451: Community Forums
452: Photo Gallery
453: Downloads
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: CPGlang
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Downloads
463: Community Forums
464: Downloads
465: Community Forums
466: Home
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Photo Gallery
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Member Screenshots
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: CPGlang
479: CPGlang
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Statistics
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Home
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Downloads
493: Photo Gallery
494: Community Forums
495: CPGlang
496: Member Screenshots
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: CPGlang
502: Photo Gallery
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Photo Gallery
506: Home
507: Your Account
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Photo Gallery
511: Photo Gallery
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Downloads
517: Your Account
518: Photo Gallery
519: Community Forums
520: Photo Gallery
521: Photo Gallery
522: Community Forums
523: Home
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Member Screenshots
527: Photo Gallery
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: CPGlang
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: CPGlang
537: Downloads
538: Photo Gallery
539: Photo Gallery
540: Community Forums
541: Home
542: CPGlang
543: Community Forums
544: Photo Gallery
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Home
550: Community Forums
551: Photo Gallery
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: CPGlang
555: News Archive
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Downloads
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Home
563: Community Forums
564: Community Forums
565: CPGlang
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Statistics
570: Your Account
571: Photo Gallery
572: Your Account
573: Community Forums
574: Home
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Your Account
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Photo Gallery
586: Community Forums
587: Home
588: Community Forums
589: Photo Gallery
590: Photo Gallery
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Photo Gallery
595: Member Screenshots
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Photo Gallery
599: Downloads
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Downloads
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Photo Gallery
608: Photo Gallery
609: CPGlang
610: Community Forums
611: Your Account
612: Community Forums
613: Downloads
614: Home
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Community Forums
618: Photo Gallery
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: Downloads
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Community Forums
629: Photo Gallery
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: Community Forums
634: Community Forums
635: Member Screenshots
636: Community Forums
637: Community Forums
638: Photo Gallery
639: Community Forums
640: Community Forums
641: Community Forums
642: Community Forums
643: Community Forums
644: Community Forums
645: Community Forums
646: Community Forums
647: Community Forums
648: Home
649: Your Account
650: Home
651: Community Forums
652: Photo Gallery
653: Community Forums
654: Photo Gallery
655: Downloads
656: CPGlang
657: Community Forums
658: Community Forums
659: Photo Gallery
660: Community Forums
661: Photo Gallery
662: Community Forums
663: Community Forums
664: Community Forums
665: Community Forums
666: Community Forums
667: Community Forums
668: CPGlang
669: Community Forums
670: Community Forums
671: Community Forums
672: Community Forums
673: Community Forums
674: News
675: Community Forums
676: Community Forums
677: Member Screenshots
678: Downloads
679: Photo Gallery
680: CPGlang
681: Community Forums
682: Community Forums
683: Community Forums
684: Community Forums
685: Downloads
686: Your Account
687: Community Forums
688: Community Forums
689: Community Forums
690: Downloads
691: Photo Gallery
692: Photo Gallery
693: Community Forums
694: Community Forums
695: Community Forums
696: Community Forums
697: Home
698: Community Forums
699: Photo Gallery
700: Community Forums
701: Community Forums
702: Community Forums
703: Community Forums
704: Community Forums
705: Community Forums
706: Community Forums
707: Community Forums
708: Community Forums
709: Member Screenshots
710: Photo Gallery
711: Photo Gallery
712: Community Forums
713: Home
714: Community Forums
715: Community Forums
716: Home
717: Community Forums
718: Community Forums
719: Community Forums
720: Community Forums
721: Community Forums
722: Community Forums
723: Community Forums
724: Photo Gallery
725: Community Forums
726: Downloads
727: CPGlang
728: Community Forums
729: Photo Gallery
730: Photo Gallery
731: Community Forums
732: Home
733: Community Forums
734: Community Forums
735: Community Forums
736: Community Forums
737: Community Forums
738: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Question for the Sherman gurus...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

The line is thin but clearly visible in my opinion: the starting point is the gun. Firefly is a popular name for the Sherman tanks converted with a 17-pdr AT gun. So, if no 17-pdr gun, the Sherman is not a Firefly.

Of course Trevor can use any set of rules to categorize his database. After people start swapping hulls, turrets, guns, engines, in my database I simple refer to those hodgepodge tanks as "Sherman", as they are nothing more than that. And for many people it is enough to see "a Sherman tank".

Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Hanno_Spoelstra
So, if no 17-pdr gun, the Sherman is not a Firefly.


What about an original 17-pdr gun turret on top of an hull that spots none of the Firefly's unique features, like the revised ammo storage?
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Massimo_Foti
What about an original 17-pdr gun turret on top of an hull that spots none of the Firefly's unique features, like the revised ammo storage?


That I would describe as "a Sherman" Wink

As a curator I would place a sign describing of which components this Sherman was made up of, and why. I would definitely not label this as a "Sherman Firefly" but a M4A(x) Medium Tank with a Firefly turret, or even, a turret with 17-pdr gun.
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Hanno_Spoelstra
That I would describe as "a Sherman" Wink


You can't have it that easy, you know Laughing


- Hanno_Spoelstra
As a curator I would place a sign describing of which components this Sherman was made up of, and why.


These days we are lucky if we can identify "which", "why" often remains a question without an answer, just like the tank in "Museo Carristi". We know that after WW II the Italian Army assembled Shermans out of anything available. At one point some turrets were used for fortifications. Later spare hulls were mixed with other turrets just for display/preservation purposes (most likely the case for the Sherman in Bologna).

Again, my point is that any categorization is arbitrary, but categorization are a necessity, so we have to live with the trade-off.

Massimo

PS You still have to tell me if a Sherman Firefly should be considered american or british Mr. Green
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Actually, the thrust of my original question: "For Fireflies that had the 17lb. gun changed (or never actually installed) is there a visual cue that says "Yep, that was intended to be, or was at one time, a "Firefly"?"

...was intended to help me distinguish all other Shermans that had been modified from Fireflies that had been modified...so the presence or absence of the 17 pounder in later years is not what I was hoping to have as a criteria. In particular, I'm trying to distinguish between Argentina's many "repotenciados" many, if not most of which originated as Fireflies. For the ones that didn't have that origin, I'm wondering how one would tell.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

That was indeed an interesting question Doug. But we failed to resist the temptation to side-track the thread... Sorry

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Massimo_Foti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 5397
Location: Lugano, Switzerland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

Back to Doug's question. The original discussion around the Sherman in Rome was lost during a server crash here. But some comments are still available on Trevor's website and could help:
preservedtanks.com/Pro...4&Select=4

Massimo
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Massimo_Foti
That was indeed an interesting question Doug. But we failed to resist the temptation to side-track the thread... Sorry

Massimo


Dangerous thread swerves are just an everyday hazard at the DG. Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Hanno_Spoelstra
Trevor, we don't need curators' descriptions, they are notoriously bad as they don't wear anoraks like we do :lol:


True, but my point is that museums need to start caring about provenance, and that means starting with the serial number and researching a vehicle's history. It shouldn't be us doing their job for them. If it was an aircraft you can be sure they'd make more effort.


- Hanno_Spoelstra
A Firefly has a 17-pounder gun with all the amenities described above. So if someone re-converted a Sherman Firefly into another configuration, then the tank loses the "Firefly" tag (which is a nickname more than a proper designation, anyway).


To me the 'someone' is key. If a collector or re-enactor puts a Firefly turret on a standard Sherman I will record it as a standard Sherman, with a Firefly turret. If however the Italian or Belgian army puts a Firefly turret on a standard Sherman and it serves in that configuration then I record it as a Firefly (but an Italian or Belgian one, not a British one).


- Massimo_Foti

From what I can see Trevor's stance is "the hull rules", if the hull came from a Firefly, Trevor will flag it as a Firefly, basically, in the scenario above, he will pick the hull.


All other things being equal, yes that is correct. Hence the tanks I have recorded as Fireflies even though they no longer have a Firefly turret or 17pdr. However, that can be trumped (see the previous paragraph) - if a tank has served in an army as a Firefly (a Firefly turret on a different hull) then it's a Firefly. Even the first British Fireflies didn't have all the characteristics we now consider to indicate a Firefly, but they were Fireflies nonetheless.

Increasingly the best answer I am finding is to make clearer categories. Once I have more examples of a tank in the database I can make finer distinctions. In this case I will likely create categories for British, Italian and Belgian Fireflies, and the text will explain the characteristics in this case. For example, I am just getting to the point where I have started to do this with the M47 Patton with its Italian Service section.


- Massimo_Foti
Other may be facing even harder choices, for example, should we put Fireflies among american or british tanks? There no definitive answer to such a question...


This was a hard choice for me at one time and I agonised over it. I now absolutely define a tank by the nationality of its hull design, and have never regretted that move. For me the Firefly comes under Sherman tanks, which are under American tanks:

Preserved American Tanks: Volume 2

There are sections there for Fireflies, Ishermans, FL10s, etc. Having experience of writing about tank development it has become for me the only choice. When writing about the Firefly you need to have described the history and development of the Sherman, much less relevant is the history of British tanks. At first glance it may appear to throw up anomalies (e.g. the US M1917 and Soviet KS are in a chapter with the FT), but it very quickly makes perfect sense. My only regret is that I didn't follow it absolutely when I wrote Preserved German Tanks, and included the Hetzer, Marder I, etc. Now they would come under Czechoslovak and French tanks respectively.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Tichenor
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 06, 2007
Posts: 461
Location: Antwerp
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

- Trevor
Once I have more examples of a tank in the database I can make finer distinctions. In this case I will likely create categories for British, Italian and Belgian Fireflies, and the text will explain the characteristics in this case.


This is going to be a hard nut to crack. As far as I know all the Firefly's in Belgium are original British build exempt maybe two ( the one in Leopoldsburg and a hull in Brasschaat). But even then there is no proof they where actualy rebuild after the war here in Belgium. But I have to say, some of the monuments here in Belgium are fore sure a mix of hulls and turrets (Hechtel, Hermeton-sur-meusse, Clermont, Mopertingen).

Michel
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Question for the Sherman gurus...

If so, I'll classify them as British and make note of differences and exceptions. I look forward to writing up Belgium - I had a lot of fun in my youth cycling round and visiting old tanks - but it won't be for some time yet.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 2 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum