- Roy_A_LingleHey Folks!
I am starting to get the feeling that we all need to get together and write a book about all the points and couter points of the Sherman. That way we can just link new guys like 'HF Evolution' over to it.
Idea
Sgt, Scouts Out!
I'm having trouble with the multiple level quotes so
Did we actually need more shipping because it took multiple Shermans to handel a 'Cat' That assumes that if you had brought over a limited number of 'anti-Cat' tanks you would be able to have one where you needed it when you needed it. Isn't that similar to the Tank destroyer doctrine of having some unist who were supposed to hunt enemy tanks? Problem is you can't know where they would show up so everyone has to be ready to handle the enemy tanks.
Why was the logistics only a US problem (actually an allied problem) Well The defender has some options on when to drop bridges (unless the zoomies get them first ) And there were times when German tanks were trapped because bridges had been destroyed. And one of the factors that slowed down the German ardennes spearheads in December of 44 were the tenacious defense of bridges by American Engineer units.
I don't think the U.S. obscessed on 'infantry support' If anything I think they obcessed on 'Tanks shouldn't fight tanks' and the use of tanks as a breakthrough weapon to run rampant in the enemies backfield once a hole had been made in the line. In that role the reliable Sherman excelled.
The big problem would have been building enough 17pdrs. It would have taken too long to 'americanize' it to be built in American factories (The British weapons that were adapted for U.S. production had been decided on early in the war when they had the 12 months or so needed to ramp up production lines. I've always thought there should have been a 90mm Sherman. The M36 showed it would fit. It was already in U.S. production. so could have been incorporated much faster than a new British gun.
- Neil_Baumgardner
However the British doctrine of mixing a Firefly in every tank platoon seems to have worked fairly well. While you might not have wanted to put an M6 or T23 in every Sherman platoon, you could have put a heavy tank platoon in every company for example. That would have ensured a good distribution on the battlefield.
IMO, the problems with Tank Destroyer doctrine were: 1) tank destroyers couldnt stand up in fights due to lighter armor; 2) tank destroyers were held at divisional level, which ensured they were almost never where they were needed...
Granted, but let me turn this a little way. Did the Germans only blow up bridges on the Western front? While the Rhein is much bigger, there are certainly lots of rivers to cross in Poland. How come the Soviets dont seem to have had much a problem getting their KV-1s & JS-2s across those rivers? Basically, I have a hard time believing that the US industrial juggernaught could not have solved this bridging problem if there had been some advance planning for the introduction of US heavy tanks.
I'll admit this is the crux of the problem - Hindsight 20-20 of how dangerous Panthers & Tigers would be in 44. There's very little time from June 44 to May 45 to turn around any production decisions. So basically any changes would have had to have been decided upon before Normandy.
They would have had to come up with a new armored turret for that 90mm gun, but that does seem like a minor problem. It seems like there were several different options available to the US at the time - M6s, T23s, and upgraded Shermans - but none were taken into service unfortunately.
Neil
- SHAWNWoah!!! debating the pros and cons of the sherman here again...
i guess this rodeo has already kicked off!
roy, will you be the referee, things may get bloody?
shawn
- bsmart- SHAWNWoah!!! debating the pros and cons of the sherman here again...
i guess this rodeo has already kicked off!
roy, will you be the referee, things may get bloody?
shawn
I don't think it will get bloody. Most of us are gentlemen here, and the others we'll beat to a pulp so quick they won't have time to bleed
- Roy_A_Lingle
When the developers started drawing up the Sherman tank, they were limited in how much it could weight. That limit came for the Combat Bridging Engineers M2 Treadway Pontoon bridge system.
<snip>That bridge could not have support the M-6 or T-23 heavy tanks. Notice the clearance between the treadway edges and the VVSS track block. Just a few inchs to spare on both sides. No room for a wider tank. No room for M4 with HVSS!
Why is this important? Between April 1943 and August 1944, someone had to request that the Engineer Command be allocated more steel for larger saddles and more rubber for larger pontoons. I don't have any facts yet, but I would not be surpised if the Engineer Command also needed larger or heavier cargo trucks to carry the larger pontoons with their larger and heavier saddles. All items that needed room within the available shipping space and had to get to the ETO.
Why ship heavier tanks if what you have can just bearly do the job for the vehicle you already have? Why ship heavier tanks that will be left behind at the first large ditch or smallest of rivers?
Is this the one and over all stopper to heavier tanks? NO! It is just ONE of many problems that added up to the idea that the Sherman is 1. Good enough (at first), and 2. it's to late, it will have to do for now.
I seam to remember of picture of T-23 crossing a Bailey Bridge. As so as I can find it, I will add it to this post.
Sorry Shawn, I can't be a ref for this one. I am one of those guys who before hanging out here, bought all that Sherman was no good and why couldn't this country do better point of view. I am now one of those guys who thinks those who did it, did the best they could at the time and for anything to have been done different, changes would have had to have been made long before the post D-Day battles exposed the Sherman's weakness vis German Cats.
- bsmartNeil - I think you are expecting much to fast reaction time from the planning process. Many of the production decisions that affected deployment in Normandy were made in 1942. They were constantly being examined and modified but the lead time for these items was long. They not only had to be produced but sent to a port, stored while it waited for a ship loaded on a ship, the ship themn had to wait for a convoy to assemble. Then the convoy plodded across the Atlantic at 6-8 knots. When it made it to Britian it would wait in the harbor for it's turn to unload. It would then be stored in a field until it was time to start loading for the trip across the Channel. Then it would be unloaded and wait until it was needed to be issued to troops.
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