±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 729
Total: 729
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: News
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Home
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Downloads
14: Community Forums
15: Home
16: Community Forums
17: Downloads
18: Member Screenshots
19: Community Forums
20: Photo Gallery
21: Home
22: Home
23: Home
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Photo Gallery
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Statistics
30: Photo Gallery
31: Downloads
32: CPGlang
33: Community Forums
34: Downloads
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Home
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Photo Gallery
41: Community Forums
42: Downloads
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Statistics
46: Downloads
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Downloads
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Member Screenshots
62: Community Forums
63: Downloads
64: Downloads
65: Downloads
66: Downloads
67: Community Forums
68: Photo Gallery
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Downloads
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Photo Gallery
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Downloads
79: Home
80: Community Forums
81: Downloads
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Photo Gallery
91: Community Forums
92: Photo Gallery
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Downloads
96: Photo Gallery
97: Photo Gallery
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Downloads
101: Community Forums
102: Treasury
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Photo Gallery
114: Community Forums
115: Photo Gallery
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Downloads
120: Community Forums
121: Photo Gallery
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Photo Gallery
125: Downloads
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Downloads
129: Photo Gallery
130: Downloads
131: Downloads
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: News
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Downloads
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Your Account
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Downloads
145: Member Screenshots
146: Community Forums
147: Downloads
148: Community Forums
149: Downloads
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Downloads
153: Photo Gallery
154: Community Forums
155: Downloads
156: Downloads
157: Community Forums
158: Downloads
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Photo Gallery
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Your Account
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Downloads
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Home
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: News Archive
187: Downloads
188: Community Forums
189: Home
190: Community Forums
191: Your Account
192: Downloads
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Photo Gallery
196: Community Forums
197: Home
198: Downloads
199: Member Screenshots
200: Your Account
201: Photo Gallery
202: Photo Gallery
203: Community Forums
204: Photo Gallery
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Member Screenshots
208: Community Forums
209: Home
210: Community Forums
211: Home
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Downloads
216: Home
217: Community Forums
218: News Archive
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Home
224: Community Forums
225: Downloads
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Photo Gallery
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Photo Gallery
233: Downloads
234: Community Forums
235: Downloads
236: Photo Gallery
237: Downloads
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Photo Gallery
243: Downloads
244: Photo Gallery
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: Photo Gallery
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Statistics
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Downloads
257: Member Screenshots
258: Home
259: Community Forums
260: Downloads
261: Photo Gallery
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Home
265: Community Forums
266: Downloads
267: Photo Gallery
268: Photo Gallery
269: Community Forums
270: Photo Gallery
271: Photo Gallery
272: Home
273: Home
274: Downloads
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Photo Gallery
279: Community Forums
280: Photo Gallery
281: Downloads
282: Community Forums
283: Photo Gallery
284: Home
285: Photo Gallery
286: Downloads
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Photo Gallery
290: Downloads
291: Photo Gallery
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Photo Gallery
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: News Archive
299: Photo Gallery
300: Downloads
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Photo Gallery
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Photo Gallery
307: Your Account
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Downloads
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Home
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Downloads
322: Downloads
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Home
326: Home
327: Community Forums
328: Home
329: Community Forums
330: Photo Gallery
331: Photo Gallery
332: Downloads
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Home
336: Downloads
337: Photo Gallery
338: Community Forums
339: Photo Gallery
340: Downloads
341: Downloads
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Photo Gallery
348: Community Forums
349: Photo Gallery
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Photo Gallery
354: Photo Gallery
355: Community Forums
356: Home
357: Photo Gallery
358: Community Forums
359: Home
360: Downloads
361: Downloads
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Photo Gallery
367: Your Account
368: Home
369: Downloads
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Your Account
374: Community Forums
375: Photo Gallery
376: Community Forums
377: Home
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Statistics
383: Community Forums
384: Downloads
385: Downloads
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Photo Gallery
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Member Screenshots
402: Community Forums
403: Home
404: Photo Gallery
405: Photo Gallery
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Photo Gallery
411: Community Forums
412: Photo Gallery
413: Photo Gallery
414: Community Forums
415: Photo Gallery
416: Downloads
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Photo Gallery
420: Downloads
421: Photo Gallery
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Statistics
426: Community Forums
427: Downloads
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Home
433: Community Forums
434: Home
435: Your Account
436: Member Screenshots
437: Photo Gallery
438: Community Forums
439: Member Screenshots
440: Community Forums
441: Photo Gallery
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Photo Gallery
445: Downloads
446: Home
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Statistics
452: Community Forums
453: Home
454: Home
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Photo Gallery
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Photo Gallery
462: Downloads
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: CPGlang
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Your Account
473: Community Forums
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Downloads
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Photo Gallery
481: Community Forums
482: Photo Gallery
483: Community Forums
484: Home
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Photo Gallery
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Photo Gallery
492: Community Forums
493: Photo Gallery
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Downloads
497: Downloads
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Photo Gallery
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Downloads
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Photo Gallery
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Your Account
521: Photo Gallery
522: Photo Gallery
523: Photo Gallery
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Photo Gallery
529: Downloads
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Photo Gallery
533: Your Account
534: Your Account
535: Community Forums
536: Photo Gallery
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Photo Gallery
540: Community Forums
541: Photo Gallery
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Your Account
545: Photo Gallery
546: Downloads
547: Photo Gallery
548: Community Forums
549: Home
550: Community Forums
551: Downloads
552: Home
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Photo Gallery
560: Photo Gallery
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Photo Gallery
564: Home
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Your Account
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Photo Gallery
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Community Forums
589: Community Forums
590: Your Account
591: Downloads
592: Community Forums
593: Home
594: Community Forums
595: LinkToUs
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Community Forums
599: Member Screenshots
600: Photo Gallery
601: Home
602: Home
603: News
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Photo Gallery
608: Photo Gallery
609: Photo Gallery
610: News
611: Community Forums
612: Community Forums
613: News Archive
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Downloads
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Downloads
622: Downloads
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: Downloads
626: Community Forums
627: Home
628: Home
629: Photo Gallery
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: Photo Gallery
634: Community Forums
635: Community Forums
636: Downloads
637: Community Forums
638: Community Forums
639: Photo Gallery
640: Community Forums
641: Community Forums
642: Downloads
643: Community Forums
644: Community Forums
645: Home
646: Downloads
647: Community Forums
648: Member Screenshots
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Photo Gallery
652: Community Forums
653: Community Forums
654: Community Forums
655: Community Forums
656: Community Forums
657: Community Forums
658: Downloads
659: Home
660: Community Forums
661: Downloads
662: Community Forums
663: Photo Gallery
664: Community Forums
665: Photo Gallery
666: Home
667: Community Forums
668: Downloads
669: Community Forums
670: Downloads
671: Community Forums
672: Community Forums
673: Community Forums
674: Community Forums
675: Community Forums
676: Photo Gallery
677: Community Forums
678: Community Forums
679: Community Forums
680: Community Forums
681: Downloads
682: Community Forums
683: Community Forums
684: Community Forums
685: Community Forums
686: Downloads
687: Downloads
688: Community Forums
689: Home
690: Community Forums
691: Community Forums
692: Community Forums
693: Member Screenshots
694: Community Forums
695: Photo Gallery
696: Downloads
697: Community Forums
698: Community Forums
699: Downloads
700: Community Forums
701: Community Forums
702: Community Forums
703: Home
704: Home
705: Community Forums
706: Community Forums
707: Downloads
708: Community Forums
709: Community Forums
710: Community Forums
711: Your Account
712: Community Forums
713: Member Screenshots
714: Community Forums
715: Community Forums
716: Community Forums
717: Photo Gallery
718: Community Forums
719: Downloads
720: Community Forums
721: Community Forums
722: Community Forums
723: Community Forums
724: Community Forums
725: Home
726: Photo Gallery
727: Downloads
728: Community Forums
729: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M60A1E1 - M60A2
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
JeffStringer
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 637

PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:02 pm
Post subject: M60A1E1 - M60A2

Forgive me if this has already discussed before, but why were these referred to as a "Starship"?

It's always been a favorite American tank of mine and I just thought this would be the right place to ask! Mr. Green
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:12 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

A favorite topic of mine, Jeff.

I served on the M60A2 Initial Production Test at the Armor Board in '73 and the "Starship" term hadn't been invented or applied yet, but I'm sure I know how it came to be so applied....

Because the vehicle was extremely ambitious for the budget available to it, the level of maturity (or immaturity, I should say) of the technology being utilized, and because in the context of the then-current tanking, it was so stupifyingly complex and unreliable that it rivaled early spacecraft.

For all it's shortcomings, as I've previously stated about both the M551 Sheridan AND the M60A2, we likely wouldn't have the M1 Abrams we have today without the pioneering ground broken and backdrop of experience provided by both of those vehicles. They were interim steps, done on the cheap, and too soon, to deliver what was promised, but that was made good when the M1 was designed.

FWIW, both the M60A2 and the Sheridan looked positively BADA$$ in their day....gotta' count for something, right? Wink

That's my $.02
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
JeffStringer
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 637

PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:00 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

Yep ... just reading about how dangerous it was to fire both tanks earned a seperate level of respect!

And they DO look assume too.


Thanks for the info Doug!
Back to top
View user's profile
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:10 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

The only place I have seen the term 'Starship' used in documents is in relation to the M60E2 which had the driver in the turret as well....

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:46 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

- JimWeb
The only place I have seen the term 'Starship' used in documents is in relation to the M60E2 which had the driver in the turret as well....


The only place I have seen the term "M60E2" is on page 179 of Hunnicutt's "Patton" to describe the interim nomenclature of an M60A1 that has been modified to accept the M81 gun and Shillelagh system. There was no provision for relocating the driver in this vehicle of which I'm aware.

Is it possible you are referring to the MBT70?

If you review guestbooks and such areas of the 1st or 3AD website as you can access, you will find references to the M60A2 as the "Starship". Unfortunately, they seem to have password protected access to many of their features recently. I've heard many a discussion on the forum making this reference, though it was all after my service. (Did the use of this term coincide with the Battlestar Galactica TV series, maybe?)

I may have a look at the USAREUR website again....
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:16 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

The only place I have seen the term "M60E2" is on page 179 of Hunnicutt's "Patton" to describe the interim nomenclature of an M60A1 that has been modified to accept the M81 gun and Shillelagh system. There was no provision for relocating the driver in this vehicle of which I'm aware.

Is it possible you are referring to the MBT70?


No! The M60E2 is the M60 fitted with the ICFC turret.

Even Hunnicutt missed things (dare I say that here???) Smile

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:25 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

- JimWeb
The only place I have seen the term "M60E2" is on page 179 of Hunnicutt's "Patton" to describe the interim nomenclature of an M60A1 that has been modified to accept the M81 gun and Shillelagh system. There was no provision for relocating the driver in this vehicle of which I'm aware.

Is it possible you are referring to the MBT70?


No! The M60E2 is the M60 fitted with the ICFC turret.

Even Hunnicutt missed things (dare I say that here???) Smile


Whoa! Looks like a giant Sheridan turret with a position for another crewmen. Did this work the same as the MBT70 turret with the same attendant "motion sickness" problems? You'd think something would have been gained from that experience that would have ruled it out on the MBT70....was this operated enough, with driver in that position, to reveal this problem? I can't understand how those issues would only have been manifested on one vehicle and not the other...

It would also seem, from that picture, that the driver would be blind in certain angles with the loaders' hatch open, and under any circumstances with cupola in the same plane with turret in some positons.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:08 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

- Doug_Kibbey
- JimWeb
The only place I have seen the term "M60E2" is on page 179 of Hunnicutt's "Patton" to describe the interim nomenclature of an M60A1 that has been modified to accept the M81 gun and Shillelagh system. There was no provision for relocating the driver in this vehicle of which I'm aware.

Is it possible you are referring to the MBT70?


No! The M60E2 is the M60 fitted with the ICFC turret.

Even Hunnicutt missed things (dare I say that here???) Smile


Whoa! Looks like a giant Sheridan turret with a position for another crewmen. Did this work the same as the MBT70 turret with the same attendant "motion sickness" problems? You'd think something would have been gained from that experience that would have ruled it out on the MBT70....was this operated enough, with driver in that position, to reveal this problem? I can't understand how those issues would only have been manifested on one vehicle and not the other...

It would also seem, from that picture, that the driver would be blind in certain angles with the loaders' hatch open, and under any circumstances with cupola in the same plane with turret in some positons.


The turret was first tested on the T95 family.

Notice the 20mm cannon, just like on the MBT-70...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:30 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

Neil,
Timeline-wise, when was the turret based driving station first actually used, and were there reports of the "disorientation" problems by driver's prior to the MBT-70?

Doug
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:54 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

As a pre-Chobham armor design the in-line turret probably wasn't half bad. What did the thing in was the awful gun/launcher and all that immature high technology. Basically their reach exceeded their grasp design-wise (a common complain about U.S. designs from back then). If only they had instead installed a 105mm (120?) gun and low profile cupola the design would probably still be in use today among 2nd eschelon units in Turkey & Israel.
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:57 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

- Doug_Kibbey
Neil,
Timeline-wise, when was the turret based driving station first actually used, and were there reports of the "disorientation" problems by driver's prior to the MBT-70?

Doug


I'll have to check my copy of Hunnicutt's Abrams (just got it off Ebay!) when I get back from travel... I suspect even if it was encountered, they probably thought it could be overcome somehow...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:29 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

The turret was first tested on the T95 family.

Notice the 20mm cannon, just like on the MBT-70.


Same concept - different turret

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:39 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

So, the M60A2 was inadequate and unreliable, but that was just insane from the get-go!
What in the name of all that is holy were they thinking?! Rolling Eyes


OK...the ladders were a nice touch...
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum