±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 638
Total: 638
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Photo Gallery
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Statistics
09: Community Forums
10: Downloads
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Photo Gallery
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Downloads
21: Community Forums
22: Downloads
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Photo Gallery
26: Photo Gallery
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Photo Gallery
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Search
34: Photo Gallery
35: CPGlang
36: Community Forums
37: Photo Gallery
38: Your Account
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Home
44: Photo Gallery
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Photo Gallery
60: Downloads
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Downloads
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Home
75: Photo Gallery
76: Community Forums
77: CPGlang
78: Community Forums
79: Photo Gallery
80: Community Forums
81: Photo Gallery
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Home
86: Photo Gallery
87: Community Forums
88: Home
89: Community Forums
90: Home
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Your Account
95: Home
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: CPGlang
100: Community Forums
101: Photo Gallery
102: Home
103: Community Forums
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: CPGlang
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Home
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Downloads
113: Downloads
114: Community Forums
115: Home
116: Home
117: Photo Gallery
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Photo Gallery
124: Community Forums
125: Home
126: Community Forums
127: Home
128: Photo Gallery
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Home
134: Photo Gallery
135: Home
136: Community Forums
137: Photo Gallery
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Photo Gallery
142: Community Forums
143: News Archive
144: Community Forums
145: Home
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Home
151: Home
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Home
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Downloads
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Home
168: Community Forums
169: Downloads
170: Community Forums
171: CPGlang
172: Home
173: Community Forums
174: Photo Gallery
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Home
178: Community Forums
179: CPGlang
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Photo Gallery
184: Community Forums
185: Photo Gallery
186: Home
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: CPGlang
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Home
200: Photo Gallery
201: Photo Gallery
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Downloads
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Photo Gallery
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: News Archive
226: Photo Gallery
227: Community Forums
228: Home
229: Community Forums
230: Your Account
231: Home
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Photo Gallery
241: Photo Gallery
242: Photo Gallery
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Photo Gallery
249: Community Forums
250: Photo Gallery
251: Downloads
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: CPGlang
259: Photo Gallery
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Photo Gallery
267: Community Forums
268: Home
269: Community Forums
270: Home
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Photo Gallery
280: Home
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Photo Gallery
284: Photo Gallery
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Member Screenshots
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Your Account
293: Community Forums
294: Home
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Home
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Home
302: Community Forums
303: Home
304: Community Forums
305: Member Screenshots
306: Community Forums
307: Photo Gallery
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Photo Gallery
313: Community Forums
314: Your Account
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Photo Gallery
320: Home
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: News
326: Community Forums
327: Photo Gallery
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Your Account
331: Community Forums
332: Photo Gallery
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Your Account
344: Home
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Home
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Member Screenshots
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Downloads
358: Your Account
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Home
371: Your Account
372: Community Forums
373: Home
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Downloads
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Home
391: Home
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Photo Gallery
404: Your Account
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Home
412: Community Forums
413: Photo Gallery
414: Photo Gallery
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: News Archive
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Home
429: Photo Gallery
430: Home
431: Community Forums
432: Home
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Community Forums
437: Home
438: Photo Gallery
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Member Screenshots
443: Home
444: Photo Gallery
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Home
449: Home
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Photo Gallery
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Photo Gallery
461: Home
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Home
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Photo Gallery
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Photo Gallery
474: Home
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Photo Gallery
481: Photo Gallery
482: Community Forums
483: Home
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: CPGlang
488: Community Forums
489: Statistics
490: Member Screenshots
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Downloads
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Home
498: Community Forums
499: CPGlang
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Photo Gallery
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Photo Gallery
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Photo Gallery
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Downloads
516: Photo Gallery
517: Downloads
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: CPGlang
521: Community Forums
522: Photo Gallery
523: Member Screenshots
524: Community Forums
525: Photo Gallery
526: Home
527: Community Forums
528: Downloads
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Photo Gallery
533: Community Forums
534: Home
535: Member Screenshots
536: Home
537: CPGlang
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Downloads
541: Community Forums
542: CPGlang
543: Community Forums
544: News Archive
545: Community Forums
546: Home
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Photo Gallery
553: Community Forums
554: Your Account
555: Community Forums
556: Photo Gallery
557: Community Forums
558: Home
559: Community Forums
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Community Forums
564: CPGlang
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Home
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Downloads
572: Photo Gallery
573: Home
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Downloads
577: Downloads
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Home
581: Community Forums
582: Photo Gallery
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Statistics
589: Your Account
590: Community Forums
591: Home
592: Photo Gallery
593: Community Forums
594: Home
595: Community Forums
596: Downloads
597: Photo Gallery
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: CPGlang
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Home
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Home
612: Photo Gallery
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Photo Gallery
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Photo Gallery
628: Community Forums
629: Photo Gallery
630: Photo Gallery
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: Photo Gallery
634: Community Forums
635: Home
636: Photo Gallery
637: Home
638: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M48 but what designation?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
jagjetta
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 06, 2006
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:40 am
Post subject: M48 but what designation?

Greetings,
I shot a bunch of details of an M48 on display at Volk Field in Wisconsin (a few overall shots attached). However, it confuses me. Note the lack of the grille configuration on the rear, no secondary idler wheel by the drive sprocket, and the lack of of a commander's cupola turret but rather, an MG mount.

Is this a straight M48?

Second question, where would one look for a serial number on this vehicle. I shot photos of several stamped and cast numbers on the hull and turret.

Thanks in advance!
John A-G
Iola, Wisconsin

_________________
John A-G
Back to top
View user's profile
Sabot
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Kentucky
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:58 am
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

Yes, I would say an M48 A-nothing. I believe the A1 had the standard cupola seen on A2/A3s. The engine layout on the original M48 was very similar to the layout on the M46 and M47 Patton.

_________________
RobG
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:15 am
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

Hi John! Hi Folks!

I have to agree with Sabot, that's a M48A0.

The engine is mo-gas or gasoline. The vehicles with the rear grill doors had diesel engines and a differert air flow layout.

The fact that it doesn't have a secondary idler wheel by the drive sprocket doesn't mean anything. Somewhere during the M48's service, that item was removed from all M48s.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
jagjetta
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 06, 2006
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:46 am
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

Thank you Roy and Rob! I plowed through Hunnicutt's book covering the Patton, and I have to say, the secondary idler wheel has thrown me on a number of occasions. I have shot several pictures of monument M47s that conform in most respects to a standard M47 EXCEPT that they lacked the secondary idler. I will dig out pics of these as well.

Best Regards from Wisconsin,
John A-G

_________________
John A-G
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:05 pm
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

Well it could be an M48C. That was the designation given to some early ones that were for training only. Most books show them as 'mild steel' but I've also read that the armor was defective so they were designated for training. I've never seen one so I don't know if any survive or if they are marked similar to the early M60s that had bad armor and were marked TRAINING TANK ONLY in welding bead in front of the drivers hatch

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
oldertop
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 20, 2006
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:50 pm
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

Rear grill doors on M48s don't automaticly mean "diesel engine powered" the hump (rear deck) and grilled doors where first intorduced on the M48A2 powered by a fuel injected gasoline (MO gas or 80 octain ) engine (1790 AVI-8).
The rear grill also vented the exhaste gas and reduced the infared signature, the hump or rear deck also reduced the signature.
The engine had the oilcoolers in the top surounding the cooling fans, this did away with the "wing" type cooler hanging out on the sides of the power pack....But what it really did was give the A2 135 more gal of gas with the form fitting engine compartment fuel tanks and a cruising range of over 100 miles for the first (with out hanging drums of gas out in the open over its ass).
Back to top
View user's profile
jagjetta
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 06, 2006
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:52 pm
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

- oldertop
Rear grill doors on M48s don't automaticly mean "diesel engine powered" the hump (rear deck) and grilled doors where first intorduced on the M48A2 powered by a fuel injected gasoline (MO gas or 80 octain ) engine (1790 AVI-8).
The rear grill also vented the exhaste gas and reduced the infared signature, the hump or rear deck also reduced the signature.
The engine had the oilcoolers in the top surounding the cooling fans, this did away with the "wing" type cooler hanging out on the sides of the power pack....But what it really did was give the A2 135 more gal of gas with the form fitting engine compartment fuel tanks and a cruising range of over 100 miles for the first (with out hanging drums of gas out in the open over its ass).


Good discussion going on here. If there are other details of this particular tank at Camp Dodge that would help identify it, please let me know...I shot about 100 details of the exterior.

John

_________________
John A-G
Back to top
View user's profile
oldertop
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 20, 2006
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:41 pm
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

One thing that maybe a ID key is the M2 sky mount on the commanders postion, the only time I've seen a mount like that is on M51 heavy trank recovery vehicles, these mount have a spring loaded balancer system to make tracking aircraft smoother.
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:34 pm
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

- oldertop
Rear grill doors on M48s don't automaticly mean "diesel engine powered" the hump (rear deck) and grilled doors where first intorduced on the M48A2 powered by a fuel injected gasoline (MO gas or 80 octain ) engine (1790 AVI-8).
The rear grill also vented the exhaste gas and reduced the infared signature, the hump or rear deck also reduced the signature.
The engine had the oilcoolers in the top surounding the cooling fans, this did away with the "wing" type cooler hanging out on the sides of the power pack....But what it really did was give the A2 135 more gal of gas with the form fitting engine compartment fuel tanks and a cruising range of over 100 miles for the first (with out hanging drums of gas out in the open over its ass).


Older Top

I've noticed a couple around here.

On a side note: I assume the 'grill doors' are significant on the M103 series ? I have run into 2 around here. Radcliff Tourism & (at least) one in RMP. Any ideas?

Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:52 pm
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

- oldertop
One thing that maybe a ID key is the M2 sky mount on the commanders postion, the only time I've seen a mount like that is on M51 heavy trank recovery vehicles, these mount have a spring loaded balancer system to make tracking aircraft smoother.


I just checked Hunnicutt and it appears that the 50 cal mount may not be standard. Hunnicutt says the Chrysler designed commanders hatch had 4 periscopes at the base. I don't see any on this one and they are pretty prominent in pictures in Hunnicutt. So it appears that the original commanders cupola (both the open and armored versions are called cupolas in Hunnicutt being referred tto as Chrysler or M1 (Which was desined by AAI)) was replaced at some time in the past with the one shown here

Also all M48(a0) had the small driver hatch. Looking down from above the left side of the small hatch is more rounded than the right side where the pivot post was. The large hatch became standard and all large hatch were equiped with the new M1 cupola and designated M48A1. So it would be interesting if you have any clear pictures of the drivers hatch to see which kind it is.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
oldertop
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 20, 2006
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:03 am
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

Yes on the M103s the hump type engine deck and the rear opening grill doors are an indicater of a dieselized vehicle (M103A2)..Like its smaller brother the M48 the 103 was always under more range development, the M103 was getting about 75 miles to a full fuel load from the gasoline fueled version.
Back to top
View user's profile
jagjetta
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 06, 2006
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:22 am
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

- bsmart
I just checked Hunnicutt and it appears that the 50 cal mount may not be standard. Hunnicutt says the Chrysler designed commanders hatch had 4 periscopes at the base. I don't see any on this one and they are pretty prominent in pictures in Hunnicutt. So it appears that the original commanders cupola (both the open and armored versions are called cupolas in Hunnicutt being referred tto as Chrysler or M1 (Which was desined by AAI)) was replaced at some time in the past with the one shown here

Also all M48(a0) had the small driver hatch. Looking down from above the left side of the small hatch is more rounded than the right side where the pivot post was. The large hatch became standard and all large hatch were equiped with the new M1 cupola and designated M48A1. So it would be interesting if you have any clear pictures of the drivers hatch to see which kind it is.


BSmart,

I am attaching closeups of the commander's hatch (as you can see, there was provision for only one periscope) and the neighboring hatch.
John

_________________
John A-G
Back to top
View user's profile
jagjetta
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 06, 2006
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:25 am
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

BSmart and OldTop,

I feel horribly remiss...in about 100 photos, I cannot find a clear view of the Driver's hatch! One image attached that looks down over the gun mantlet and you can sort of see the edges of the driver's hatch.

A rear deck and profile of commander's cupola attached as well

John Adams-Graf
Iola, Wisconsin

_________________
John A-G
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:18 pm
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

Looking at the new pictures of the commanders hatch the periscopes (or at theast their protective frames) are there it just wasn't obvious in the first shot. There are provisions for 4 periscopes. Only one is fitted (to the rear) but you can see the protective frames above the one for the left and right quadrant and one between the gun mount.

When I get home I'll look at Hunnicutt again. The picture looking down at the drivers hatch with the gun barrel hiding most of it may give us enough clues (It has to do with the periscopes and braces to hold the hatch in the open position) but since it appears that the drivers cupola is the proper one for an M48(a0) the drivers hatch just becomes confirming evidence

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
jagjetta
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 06, 2006
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:44 pm
Post subject: Re: M48 but what designation?

Bob,
Thanks so much! you are doing some fine sleuthing. I will be back in the Camp Dodge area again next weekend so could shoot more pics if necessary. Please let me know if there any other views that will help confirm the identity.

Have a good weekend!
John

_________________
John A-G
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum