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panther found in basement?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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JG300-Ascout
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:56 pm
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

- Rikard_Hufschmied
It's also quite apparent that local authorities have been uncomfortable with Klaus Dieter Flick for quite some time and adopted the "better to be safe than sorry" stance and hence taken action accordingly.

This in combination with the "Nazi-Art" affair has clearly been a thumb in the eye for some, and the "closet Nazi" rumors have certainly made matters even worse.

You have to take in to consideration that Third Reich symbols in private hands are outright outlawed in the Federal Republic, even Waffenamt stampings are considered eagle-swastika and the swastika has to be permanently removed.

The second world war is a touchy subject in Germany, with good right if you ask me, so I will not be surprised if they go after Klaus Dieter with everything they've got.

We need not worry about the Panther being cut up, they know the value of it. If not returned, which I doubt, it will end up in a museum for sure.


That being said (and quite rightly, too), I know from personal experience that there's a good deal of contraband lurking in footlockers under beds, in basements/attics, etc. Being shown such items is both interesting and chilling.

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Asbjoern
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:42 pm
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

- Rikard_Hufschmied

You have to take in to consideration that Third Reich symbols in private hands are outright outlawed in the Federal Republic, even Waffenamt stampings are considered eagle-swastika and the swastika has to be permanently removed.


Sorry, thats a way too far ... the posession of swastika-bearing stuff is not prohibited/illigal in Germany, only to show them in public! This is basing on the §86StGB (criminal code) making it illigal to show forbidden symbols in general for propagandistic use... the only legal context you can show Nazi symbols in Germany is for scientific use or in film/ theatre. Original stuff must not be denazified too, its legal to offer them in public with the symbols covered...

Jens
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Rikard_Hufschmied
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:13 am
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

- Asbjoern
- Rikard_Hufschmied

You have to take in to consideration that Third Reich symbols in private hands are outright outlawed in the Federal Republic, even Waffenamt stampings are considered eagle-swastika and the swastika has to be permanently removed.


Sorry, thats a way too far ... the posession of swastika-bearing stuff is not prohibited/illigal in Germany, only to show them in public! This is basing on the §86StGB (criminal code) making it illigal to show forbidden symbols in general for propagandistic use... the only legal context you can show Nazi symbols in Germany is for scientific use or in film/ theatre. Original stuff must not be denazified too, its legal to offer them in public with the symbols covered...

Jens


Alright, noted. I'd misinterpreted the legislation regarding nazi-symbols. It's just that I've seen so much de-nazified stuff (even waffenamt stampings) come out of Germany that I believed it to be the case. Possibly an over zealous approach by dealers not wanting to be even close of over stepping.

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JG300-Ascout
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:29 am
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

Nevertheless, it's always disconcerting to find a two volume set of "Adolf Hitler In Documenten" prominently displayed on the bookshelf. Two business associates of mine were sons (one German, one Dutch) of Waffen SS Troopers (one claiming fairly innocuous duty in Organization Todt on the Atlantic Wall) More graphic items were stowed privately out of public view. I suppose a basic conflict of family pride vs. cultural ambivilance.

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horrocks
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:52 pm
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

I am in a slight muddle because I thought the ex-London/REME Panther G was in the collection of a Herr Frick (sic?) in Solingen. Solingen is nowhere near Kiel. Is this a different Frick/Flick, and a different Panther?
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Walter
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:24 pm
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

No the Flick Panther was only restored in Solingen.
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WimD.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:24 am
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

I found a picture of the "underground garage":
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vw82
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:23 pm
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

I suspect the owner just found a very cheap way to have his Panther leave its garage/basement parking place.
Now that's its "above ground", and once everyone quits getting excited & decide its all legal he can display it somewhere else.
All cost paid for by the tax payer!

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vw82
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:49 am
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

Its been very quite for the last month.
The news is that a "Petition" has been going around the area to have all his "collection" returned & the damage done to the roads be repaired. Signed by over 800 residents.
His lawyer states that the local government has known about his hobby for over 10 years and the collection had been demilitarized as required.
An interesting development is that the Bundeswehr /German Army helped repair the Panther's engine for the tune of €28,317, which was promptly payed in full.

In German...
www.shz.de/lokales/kie...62446.html


Last edited by vw82 on Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Asbjoern
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:32 pm
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

... another press release states that the experts hired by the prosecutor found out that all three items are not demilitarized according to todays law and that the owner is not able to document the legal ownership at all as he has no purchase contract ...if so the machinery would be state property anyway as all "Reichs- stuff" left behind in the boundaries of Germany never became private property without officially sold by the German government. If the stuff was in other countries in May 45 it became property of this country / the landowner it was found.
Maybe he has only a bill for buying "fourtysomewhat tons of scrap metal" ...

Most possible it will stay very quiet for a long time as the lawyers from both sides are already in close combat ...

Jens
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Michel_Krauss
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:05 pm
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

- Asbjoern
... another press release states that the experts hired by the prosecutor found out that all three items are not demilitarized according to todays law and that the owner is not able to document the legal ownership at all as he has no purchase contract ...if so the machinery would be state property anyway as all "Reichs- stuff" left behind in the boundaries of Germany never became private property without officially sold by the German government. If the stuff was in other countries in May 45 it became property of this country / the landowner it was found.
Maybe he has only a bill for buying "fourtysomewhat tons of scrap metal" ...

Most possible it will stay very quiet for a long time as the lawyers from both sides are already in close combat ...

Jens


If the above is correct, Flick will get the Panther back

Most likely it was demilitarized according the old laws, the new laws only apply to new items
You can not create a new law that replaces an old one and then say all the previous items are illegal
The owner only has to show that it was correctly done and aproved at the time of the old laws.

And concerning the ownership, about all of the privatly owned tanks were sold as scrap by the goverment and if he can proof he boughted 45tons of scrap ... no problem
He just restored a 45ton scrap metal Panther, that's not against the law

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Pzkpfw-e
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:05 am
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

Does he just dig out the old copy of "After the Battle" showing the scrap being taken out of the scrapyard on Cock Lane, Surrey?
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Asbjoern
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:47 am
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

I think the main problem in this case is not the tank (+gun+torpedo) itself but the "political" thing in the background. The prosecutor thought she had a good weapon to hurt the "old nazi stuff collector" as they could not find something to sue him in connection with the sculptures and thought the public will celebrate her for secruing it from the threats of evil warefare in the hands of an old fool ... now she gets aware that the case is not that clear and Mr. Flick has many supporters - so thes try to find other evidenc of breaking the law to stay on the right side ... therefor the claim of "no real cartificate of possession"...

Most to all aroured vehicles in the hands of private people - even those officially sold by the German Amry before this practise was stopped some years ago - will be not demilled correctly after todays opinion ... and many will have gone through so many hands that some "titles" are lost.

Jens
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