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Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and

- binder001
Doug, Thank you for sharing the photos.

That looks like a fist-rate military museum. Quite a Sherman collection they have! I have seen photos of that M31 recovery vehicle before. I think it is the most complete of its kind left in existence.

Gary


There is on Wikipedia a report of this one in Tel Aviv with at least one of it's "phony" guns (don't know if it's still the case)

commons.wikimedia.org/...osef-2.jpg

...and Chris Conners has a pic of this one on his site supposedly at the Patton Museum (is this one still there...I don't recall seeing it?)

afvdb.50megs.com/usa/p...rvm31.html

AND THIS GUY HAS DONE A NICE WALKAROUND OF THIS SAME VEHICLE, POSTED HERE: Wink

news.webshots.com/albu...9631RfUgws
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and

Time to detail out one vehicle....





Interior (remember, it was REALLY, REALLY dark in there..I was shooting blind)...









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Dontos
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and

[quote="Doug_Kibbey"]
- binder001
Doug, Thank you for sharing the photos.

That looks like a fist-rate military museum. Quite a Sherman collection they have! I have seen photos of that M31 recovery vehicle before. I think it is the most complete of its kind left in existence.

Gary


There is on Wikipedia a report of this one in Tel Aviv with at least one of it's "phony" guns (don't know if it's still the case)

commons.wikimedia.org/...osef-2.jpg



...and Chris Conners has a pic of this one on his site supposedly at the Patton Museum (is this one still there...I don't recall seeing it?)

afvdb.50megs.com/usa/p...rvm31.html

We have it.... Its in Front of the Museum.



Don
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:38 am
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more

Hi Doug! Hi Folks!

- Doug_Kibbey

"Gee, I coulda' had a V8!" (Is this a Ford or Cadillac?)




I think that is a Ford GAA V8 that was standard in the M4A3 Shermans.

I like the way they took the time to set up some of the engines for display.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:21 am
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Doug! Hi Folks!

- Doug_Kibbey

"Gee, I coulda' had a V8!" (Is this a Ford or Cadillac?)



I think that is a Ford GAA V8 that was standard in the M4A3 Shermans.

I like the way they took the time to set up some of the engines for display.
Sgt, Scouts Out!


www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt5uSx3eFYU

Mr. Green
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and

So, by now you're all aware of the M4 Reponteciado version with the upgraded French V8 diesel, just with a between-the-cyl-bank exhaust manifold and the 105mm gun which is apparently a copy of the one in the AMX-13 and of Argentine manufacture. There are other mods, but that's the big stuff. Lets look inside one....



















Last edited by Doug_Kibbey on Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dontos
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more

Personally, I don't warm up to the idea of the side opening breech in an enclosed vehicle(ie a tank).



Weird color coimbo on the interior. Red & Green ?!!!

Cool stuff though Doug. Thanks

"Training has taken place"... Rolling Eyes
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:13 am
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and

'Nuther M4 and who doesn't love a turret trainer?










Meanwhile...over at the Ministry of Defense....







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Chris_C
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and more

Interesting pics, thanks. Smile
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and

Back to the museum...two views of a dismounted gun. I belive this one was labeled as a 76.2mm...would that make it a 17lb.er?





...and who doesn't love a halftrack?





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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and

The AMX-13 (M-58). This is the same gun that inspired the Argentine manufactured version that is installed on the upgunned Shermans. This vehicle sits up at the bow because when I peeked in that inspection hole there above the second road wheel, I noticed the power pack is missing.



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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and

Well, I'll just let the info sign tell the tale. Could only get pics of the driver compartment. Don't know much else about this vehicle.











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glmm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and

Just a quick notes:
- Argentina bought a large number of second hand Shermans after the war, maybe up to 400 of several marks, including a number of Fireflies.
- Not all the vehicles were in service at the same time, as many were used as spare part sources. The vehicles were bought as junk!
- The Fireflies seems to have been the priority given their power armament.
- Never heard about three man crews for Argentine Shermans before!
- By the 70s the Sherman fleet was worn out. Rising tensions with Chile brought an update program with French elements. No doubt related to the French experience in developing the Israeli Sherman updates a few years early. Note the original turret shape was kept, no a small feat fitting such a powerful and large gun in such a small turret!
- The gun installed is the same gun as fitted to the AMX-13 (them in service with Argentina), itself derived from the F-1 gun of the AMX-30 with lower recoil and capable only of firing HEAT rounds. This is thus the same gun as fitted to the Israeli M51. These guns were made under license in Argentina.
- A new Poyaud 520 series diesel replaced previous engines. I think this was supercharged, although I don`t have my notes at hand.
- The upgraded vehicles got all four men crews. Other changes were nex coax MGs and modern radios.
- Asking a previous question, Argentina did use a small number of Crusader towers, although they disappeared rather quickly.

Went to Buenos Aires late 2005 but unfortunately couldn`t visit this museum as only opened in weekends!
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Argentine Army Historical Museum, Part II: Shermans and

- glmm
Just a quick notes:
- Argentina bought a large number of second hand Shermans after the war, maybe up to 400 of several marks, including a number of Fireflies.
- Not all the vehicles were in service at the same time, as many were used as spare part sources. The vehicles were bought as junk!
- The Fireflies seems to have been the priority given their power armament.
- Never heard about three man crews for Argentine Shermans before!
- By the 70s the Sherman fleet was worn out. Rising tensions with Chile brought an update program with French elements. No doubt related to the French experience in developing the Israeli Sherman updates a few years early. Note the original turret shape was kept, no a small feat fitting such a powerful and large gun in such a small turret!
- The gun installed is the same gun as fitted to the AMX-13 (them in service with Argentina), itself derived from the F-1 gun of the AMX-30 with lower recoil and capable only of firing HEAT rounds. This is thus the same gun as fitted to the Israeli M51. These guns were made under license in Argentina.
- A new Poyaud 520 series diesel replaced previous engines. I think this was supercharged, although I don`t have my notes at hand.
- The upgraded vehicles got all four men crews. Other changes were nex coax MGs and modern radios.
- Asking a previous question, Argentina did use a small number of Crusader towers, although they disappeared rather quickly.

Went to Buenos Aires late 2005 but unfortunately couldn`t visit this museum as only opened in weekends!


Thanks for your post, "glmm"....further to it:

Re: the three man crews...surfing the net for the sites on the upgraded M4's in Argentinian service, you don't find this reference, yet the info signs at the museum itself noted "Tripulacion: 3 hombres". Now, we well know that museum signs can be in error so I certainly asked about this. As it was, my principal guide was an AA artillerist but thought it was correct. I haven't yet written my big followup to my contacts there on several items, but will do so and mean to clarify this point. The assumption is that the TC did the loading and this is what I was told.

The engine upgrades. My first impression was that the French Poyaud 520 V8 was turbo-charged from the configuration of the exhaust. I did a lot of 'net surfing and found no info on land vehicles to support that. Also, I did find that this engine has the configuration of an inside-the-V exhaust manifold which very much resembles what would look like a turbo application without actually being one. For the time being, I'm inclined to think it's normally aspirated, but looks blown, until I can get this detail confirmed. I sure wish I'd poked my camera up in that engine bay further with the flash. Rolling Eyes

I have email contacts for some armor specialists in Argentina that I've yet to contact (at Brigade level) but you can be sure I will. I hope to get some of these details cleared up as soon as I can...and hope to enlist a member or more to join us here. Wink

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