±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 278
Total: 278
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: News Archive
08: Community Forums
09: Photo Gallery
10: Community Forums
11: Photo Gallery
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Home
16: Home
17: Member Screenshots
18: Home
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Home
24: Home
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Photo Gallery
28: Home
29: Home
30: Home
31: Community Forums
32: Member Screenshots
33: Community Forums
34: Home
35: Community Forums
36: Home
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Your Account
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Home
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Photo Gallery
49: Community Forums
50: Home
51: Home
52: Community Forums
53: Home
54: Community Forums
55: Home
56: News Archive
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Home
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Home
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Home
69: Home
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Member Screenshots
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Home
80: Downloads
81: Community Forums
82: Your Account
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Home
88: Home
89: Member Screenshots
90: Community Forums
91: Home
92: Member Screenshots
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Home
97: Photo Gallery
98: Community Forums
99: Home
100: Community Forums
101: CPGlang
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Home
108: Community Forums
109: Home
110: Home
111: Home
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Home
121: Community Forums
122: Home
123: Community Forums
124: Photo Gallery
125: Home
126: Community Forums
127: Home
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Home
134: Home
135: Home
136: Home
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Home
142: Community Forums
143: Home
144: Home
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Home
149: Community Forums
150: Photo Gallery
151: Home
152: Member Screenshots
153: Community Forums
154: Downloads
155: Home
156: Community Forums
157: Home
158: CPGlang
159: Community Forums
160: Home
161: Community Forums
162: Home
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Home
170: Home
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Home
181: Home
182: Home
183: Statistics
184: Home
185: Home
186: Photo Gallery
187: Community Forums
188: Home
189: Photo Gallery
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Home
194: Community Forums
195: Member Screenshots
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Member Screenshots
203: Community Forums
204: Home
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Home
208: Photo Gallery
209: Community Forums
210: Photo Gallery
211: Member Screenshots
212: Photo Gallery
213: Member Screenshots
214: Home
215: Community Forums
216: Home
217: Home
218: Community Forums
219: Home
220: Community Forums
221: Home
222: Community Forums
223: Home
224: Community Forums
225: Home
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Home
231: Community Forums
232: Home
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Home
238: Home
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Home
242: Home
243: Home
244: Community Forums
245: Home
246: Community Forums
247: CPGlang
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Photo Gallery
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Member Screenshots
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Home
266: Home
267: Community Forums
268: Member Screenshots
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Home
273: Home
274: Member Screenshots
275: Home
276: Home
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
vagabond
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 05, 2009
Posts: 1388
Location: Constantly moving across US
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:25 pm
Post subject: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Hi All,

I made a return trip to the Armed Forces Military Museum in Largo, FL to photograph the cupola on the M4A3 Sherman. I took a number of detail photos and added them to the existing museum gallery. The link below should take you to the page with the new photos.
I also spoke with the museum historian (as I noted in the PBS Motorweek post) regarding the cupola. Via phone I told him that the cupola was a rare, experimental model and wasn’t historically accurate. I offered to send him the info from JoeD’s post if he was interested and did so via email. We’ll see if anything changes, but at least I passed the information on to the museum. Worth a shot.

New photos page link:
www.vgbimages.com/AFV-...;k=F4x24jd

Back to top
View user's profile
Costas_TT
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 15, 2012
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Another issue the museum should be aware of is the tank itself. Try as I might, I have yet to find a picture of a 60 degree M4A3 hull with a T23 turret. Although it's possible, given that the Sherman's 69" turret ring can take it, it doesn't appear to have been done even for trials.

_________________
1/72 and 1/76 scale fanatic.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:56 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Was it a postwar development for use on Shermans (for foreign sales)? Or not intended for Shermans at all?
Back to top
View user's profile
vagabond
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 05, 2009
Posts: 1388
Location: Constantly moving across US
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:59 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Neil -

Quoting JoeD's post from the Motorweek on PBS thread:

- Joe_D
Would be nice if museums would at least acknowledge that items they have on display are accurate or just representations using similar but not historically correct. Nothing is perfect but seeing "Kit Bashes" like this M4 makes me cringe.

The cupola on this tank is quite rare, it is not from an M48A1, but rather one of the experimental AAI model 108 cupolas designed as a possible replacement for the troublesome M1 cupola which never was adopted. They installed these on the T54/T54E2 turrets the Army tested. The hatch pivots to the side instead of up and back. You can also see this cupola installed on the T95 experimental tank, since the T54E2 turrets were turned over to this program. Some pictures also show it on T95 specific turrets. The original prototype M60 had this same type cupola mounted until the M19 was fully developed. To my knowledge only maybe 5 or 6 of these were made at most, this being a generous estimate. Below are pictures courtesy of Jim's "Jed" site.

T54E2

T95

I have an image back home of the Pilot M60 mounting this cupola, but can't find a copy online to post. Really curious where they got this cupola from. I know T54E2/T95 turrets were scrapped, most likely used as hard targets. Wonder if they found it along with the Sherman Turret on the ranges at Eglin AFB. Lot of stuff was disposed there. Really needs to be recognized for what it is, and possibly some museum offer to trade an authentic Sherman cupola for this one, being quite rare.
Back to top
View user's profile
panamadan
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:58 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Its an odd looking A3-look closely at the hull hatches and bow MG-something is odd here.
Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Costas_TT
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 15, 2012
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:32 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Hence my previous post. The way I see it, it's a mid-production dry stowage hull (as evidenced by the drivers' long cowls lacking direct vision slots and the lack of applique plates on the hull sides) - not a feature normally associated with the T23 type turret.

_________________
1/72 and 1/76 scale fanatic.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
panamadan
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:35 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

But look closely at the hull hatches hinges and the front appliqué armor-something looks wrong here.
Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Costas_TT
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 15, 2012
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:30 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

You're absolutely right, Dan. I got a good hard look at the cowls and there is something definitely fishy, not just the non-standard applique plates, which were probably added during restoration and the hinges. The cowls are not mid-late production as I had originally surmised, since they lack the auxiliary drop-down periscopes on the front and their shape is quite unusual and not even consistent with that of direct vision cowls, not to mention they protrude too much above the hull roof. Even in Hunnicutt's book, I have not been able to find something like that, which leads me to believe they were made during restoration. Maybe the tank lacked them for some reason when it came to the museum or it already had been fitted with those by someone else.
I'm just as bummed as you are now.

_________________
1/72 and 1/76 scale fanatic.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

I tink that the drivers' hoods and the bow MG mount were rebuilt. Maybe the hull came from a range and was too badly damaged, that it necessitated to rebuild the front hull?

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
vagabond
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 05, 2009
Posts: 1388
Location: Constantly moving across US
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

Hey Guys,

I've uploaded a somewhat blurry photo in which you can see what looks like a weld seam coming from the turret ring and going down the glacis plate. It appears that the hatches and most of the glacis plate have been replaced - which would explain the oddities noted on this thread.

Take a look -


Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:29 am
Post subject: Re: Experimental AAI model 108 cupola - Largo, FL

what look original are the hatches, the travel lock, the hull antenna mount and the hull lifting rings.

The drivers' hoods are replicas, and the travel lock mount/supports, front appliqué plates, bow MG are replicas too.

As you said, it seems that a great part of the front armor was missing on this hull.

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum