±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 334
Total: 334
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Photo Gallery
02: News Archive
03: Community Forums
04: Photo Gallery
05: Home
06: Home
07: Photo Gallery
08: CPGlang
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Photo Gallery
12: Photo Gallery
13: Community Forums
14: Home
15: Community Forums
16: Photo Gallery
17: Home
18: Community Forums
19: Home
20: Home
21: Home
22: Photo Gallery
23: Home
24: Home
25: Photo Gallery
26: Community Forums
27: News
28: Your Account
29: Community Forums
30: CPGlang
31: Home
32: Community Forums
33: Home
34: Community Forums
35: Downloads
36: Community Forums
37: Home
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: CPGlang
41: Photo Gallery
42: Community Forums
43: CPGlang
44: Home
45: Community Forums
46: Photo Gallery
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Home
52: Community Forums
53: Home
54: Home
55: Home
56: Photo Gallery
57: Photo Gallery
58: Community Forums
59: Member Screenshots
60: Home
61: Community Forums
62: CPGlang
63: CPGlang
64: Community Forums
65: Photo Gallery
66: Home
67: Community Forums
68: Home
69: Home
70: Home
71: Community Forums
72: Photo Gallery
73: Your Account
74: Community Forums
75: Home
76: Home
77: CPGlang
78: Community Forums
79: Home
80: Community Forums
81: Photo Gallery
82: Community Forums
83: Home
84: Home
85: Home
86: Home
87: Downloads
88: Community Forums
89: Member Screenshots
90: Community Forums
91: Home
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Home
95: Downloads
96: Community Forums
97: Home
98: Community Forums
99: CPGlang
100: Community Forums
101: Photo Gallery
102: Community Forums
103: Home
104: Community Forums
105: Home
106: News
107: Community Forums
108: Home
109: Community Forums
110: Home
111: Community Forums
112: CPGlang
113: CPGlang
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Photo Gallery
120: Community Forums
121: Home
122: Community Forums
123: News Archive
124: Community Forums
125: Photo Gallery
126: Community Forums
127: Home
128: Photo Gallery
129: Home
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Member Screenshots
133: Downloads
134: Home
135: Home
136: Home
137: Home
138: Community Forums
139: Home
140: Photo Gallery
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: CPGlang
144: Community Forums
145: Home
146: Home
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Home
150: Home
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Home
154: Community Forums
155: Home
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Photo Gallery
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Home
162: Downloads
163: Downloads
164: Downloads
165: Home
166: Community Forums
167: Home
168: Member Screenshots
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: CPGlang
172: Community Forums
173: Home
174: Community Forums
175: Home
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: CPGlang
180: Community Forums
181: CPGlang
182: Photo Gallery
183: Home
184: Community Forums
185: Home
186: News
187: CPGlang
188: Community Forums
189: Home
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Home
193: Photo Gallery
194: Community Forums
195: Home
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Photo Gallery
201: Community Forums
202: Home
203: Community Forums
204: Photo Gallery
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Photo Gallery
210: Home
211: Home
212: Home
213: Home
214: Community Forums
215: Photo Gallery
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Photo Gallery
219: Home
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Home
223: CPGlang
224: CPGlang
225: Community Forums
226: Member Screenshots
227: CPGlang
228: CPGlang
229: Home
230: Community Forums
231: Home
232: Home
233: Downloads
234: Home
235: Community Forums
236: Home
237: Community Forums
238: Photo Gallery
239: Community Forums
240: Home
241: Photo Gallery
242: Home
243: CPGlang
244: Member Screenshots
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: Community Forums
248: Home
249: Community Forums
250: Photo Gallery
251: Member Screenshots
252: Home
253: Photo Gallery
254: Home
255: Downloads
256: Home
257: Home
258: Home
259: Home
260: Member Screenshots
261: Downloads
262: CPGlang
263: Community Forums
264: Your Account
265: Member Screenshots
266: Community Forums
267: Home
268: CPGlang
269: CPGlang
270: Home
271: Home
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: CPGlang
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Member Screenshots
280: Statistics
281: Home
282: Home
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Home
288: Your Account
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Home
292: Home
293: Home
294: Your Account
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Photo Gallery
301: Community Forums
302: Home
303: Home
304: Community Forums
305: News Archive
306: Community Forums
307: Photo Gallery
308: Home
309: Community Forums
310: Photo Gallery
311: Photo Gallery
312: Community Forums
313: Home
314: Home
315: Photo Gallery
316: CPGlang
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Home
320: Home
321: CPGlang
322: Home
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Downloads
326: CPGlang
327: Downloads
328: Home
329: Your Account
330: Photo Gallery
331: Photo Gallery
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: CPGlang

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Training Tank Only
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Shadow_Bshwackr
Janitor

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 7019
Location: Central Illinois, USA
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

Nice pics fellas...
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Chris_C
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 214
Location: WV, USA
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:27 am
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

- bsmart
Here is a picture of the Weirton T95. Cast in the lower front hull is a Ser No 5 so I think your ID is confirmed
I grew up about 45 minutes south of Weirton, so it was nice seeing this vehicle being discussed. I have some more photos I could scan if anyone wants them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:30 am
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

Neil is as 'GAA - GAA' on the MBT 70 / XM803 as I am on the Ontos.

Nice one Neil

Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:34 am
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

- Dontos
Neil is as 'GAA - GAA' on the MBT 70 / XM803 as I am on the Ontos.

Nice one Neil

Don


Yeah, oddities - ie prototypes, pilots, etc is kinda my thing. Probably started after I saw the T30 at Fort Jackson when I was in school at USC and couldnt find anything on it in the references I had - and this multiplied many-fold when I visited Aberdeen Proving Ground of course. For a lot of these vehicles, little to no info exists on them on the web, although I have since been able to find good book sources.

But even Hunnicutt isnt a good source for info on individual pilots & prototypes of a particular model. I've been able to piece together the MBT-70 puzzle over the last year or so in large part due to this board. Much of the T95 family puzzle remains a mystery - conflicting numbers in sources, discrepencies between hull numbers & pilot numbers, etc.

My long-talked-about-but-never-gotten-around-to goal is an website that would focus initially on US prototypes & pilots. From visits to APG & Knox, I now have a pretty good archive. Further updates would include more common US armor as well as British, French & Canadian (from to visits to Bovington, Saumur & Ottawa). I literally have GBs worth of armor pics...

Someday... Unfortunately work & grad school kinda get in the way...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Chris_C
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 214
Location: WV, USA
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:09 am
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

- binder001
For the M60s - I remember hearing about some of these with the welded "Training Only" or "Non-ballistic". I was also told once that these were ex-prototype vehicles, the mild steel was used as it was easier to work on than hardened armor.
I should have added this to my post about the T95, sorry...

On some areas of the hulls of the four pilot M60s and fifteen production tanks, the armor was thinned down to reduce weight. It was then determined that these areas were not sufficiently protected, so these vehicles were given to the Armor School as training tanks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

I'll make a sot at the 'generations

The M3 had a smaller cousin (The M6?) that was a 37mm mounted on a 1 1/2 ton truck chassis. It was quickly decided that anything that light was no longer an AT weapon. I think some were used in the Pacific for bunker busting

There was also a 57mm variation of the M3 that may have been foisted off on the British

The full track TDs started with the M10 which morphed into the M36

The hotrodders got into the act with the M18 causing some M10 units to be reequiped with the M18 and some with the more powerful but slower M36. ( The M10s were converted to gun tractors for Heavy Artillery or used to convert towed TD units to SP units). The Brits converted some M10s to Aichelles by replacing the 3" with a 17 pdr.

Also I think the M12 GMC had great potential as an AT weapon but technically it was an SP field gun so it probably doesn't count in the lineage (but it could sure surprise a German Cat :-))

After WWII the term Tank Destroyer (and the Branch) disappeared. The only folks (In the Army) interested in an Antitank vehicle smaller than a tank were the Airborne folks who saw the potential of tbeing speed bumps to the Russian and Chinese Hordes

The Ontos and the M-56 SPAT/Scorpion selfpropelled 90mm were the outcome of that. I've always assumed there was some interest in the Ontos by the Army but that it lost out to a more conventional M-56, but I may be wrong.

Anyway the advent of the ATGM ended the 'need' for a light AT platform and various vehicle and manpacked ATGMs have taken over.

Since I did this all 'off the cuff ' with no use of reference materials I'm sure I missed some but it should get the ball rolling.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
David_Reasoner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 127
Location: South Central Kentucky
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

The biggest users of the 57mm on M3 halftrack (T48 GMC IIRC) were the Red Army. Although originally produced for the British, the Brits passed them directly to the Soviets, who organized them into SP antitank regiments.

The M6 GMC was the 37mm gun on Dodge 3/4 ton weapons carrier chassis. They saw very brief service in Tunisia, with some of the guns later being remounted on M2 halftracks.

Prewar US tank destroyer doctrine called for the TD units to be a very mobile (corps level) reserve intended to quickly backstop an armored breakthrough of the front. The M6 and M18 gun motor carriages were the epitome of this concept of speed and mobility to allow the units to be rapidly deployed where they were needed. Kind of a "fire brigade" approach to antitank defense.

David
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

<DING, DING, DING, DING>

Bob

Awesome! You nailed it.

(I had actually forgotten about the 37mm on the truck, so....)

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

I figured either the 37mm or the 57mm were the 'Gotchas' in the Family tree. I'm probably the only one who thinks about using a 155mm SP gun as an AT weapon Smile I have seen reports about them being used as direct fire AT guns. I know there was an AP round made for the 155, it was actually called 'Semi Armor Piercing' since it was meant for coast defence use and in Naval terms didn't rate a full armor piercing designation, but the reports I've seen didn't mention the ammo used. Since the M12s were also used as direct fire weapons against the West Wall defences there might have been AP rounds available. Do you think the 155L60 gun would have any problem with a Panther or a Tiger Smile

By the way Don was the Ontos considered for the Airborne AT role that the M56 had? I figure you probably know if anyone does

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
David_Reasoner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 127
Location: South Central Kentucky
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

Bob, I believe the 155mm used on the M12 was actually the older M1917 155L45. The newer "Long Tom" was used on it's successor, the M40 GMC. Either way, I would not want to be on the wrong end, AP or SAP ( or HE for that matter) Even if it doesn't penetrate, a hundred pound shell arriving at well over 2000fps is bound to make an impression. The M12 was also used in a point-blank direct fire role against the old French forts at Metz.

David
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

On about the forth posting, page 1 of this long thread, there is a picture of an M60 tank, (full shot). I noticed that the road wheels are ribbed looking. I dont believe I've seen this before on a modern tank, aren't they all usually smooth dished. It caught my eye because being on a wash rack with a fire hose cleaning these would make alot of back spray when it hits those ribs, pain in the butt to clean. Experimental?

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Chris_C
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 214
Location: WV, USA
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

No, they were aluminum wheels used to save weight (65 lb per wheel). They needed steel backing plates to protect them from the track guides. They were dropped in May 1980 in favor of steel wheels again, since the aluminum wheels were more expensive.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Training Tank Only

- David_Reasoner
Bob, I believe the 155mm used on the M12 was actually the older M1917 155L45. The newer "Long Tom" was used on it's successor, the M40 GMC. Either way, I would not want to be on the wrong end, AP or SAP ( or HE for that matter) Even if it doesn't penetrate, a hundred pound shell arriving at well over 2000fps is bound to make an impression. The M12 was also used in a point-blank direct fire role against the old French forts at Metz.

David


Took me a while to find, but here are penetration stats for the M1918 155mm (also carried on the M12). I have included 76mm and 17 pdr stats for comparison. Interestingly, the 155 has better penetration than the 76 - but not the 17 pounder! Although there is more than penetration. Even if you're not penetrated, you could be rendered inoperable due to sheer impact force (ie everything breaks inside & outside).

"Sherman, A History of the American Medium Tank", R. P. Hunnicutt, Presidio Press, 1978, pages 559-570. Ranges in yards; armour type (FH = Face-hardened, H = Homogenous) as shown at 30º.

Weapon Ammo Type 600 yds 1000 yds
76mm APC M62 H 93 88
M1918 M112B1 FH 109 102
M1918 AP H 127 119
17 pdr APCBC H 140 130
17 pdr APSV/DS H 208 192

No stats given for the M1918 penetration at 1600 & 2000 yds.

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 4 of 4
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum