±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 225
Total: 225
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Home
03: Photo Gallery
04: Community Forums
05: Your Account
06: Home
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Community Forums
10: Home
11: Home
12: Home
13: Home
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Home
17: Tell a Friend
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Home
21: Your Account
22: Community Forums
23: Photo Gallery
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Home
27: Community Forums
28: Photo Gallery
29: Home
30: Home
31: Community Forums
32: Home
33: Home
34: Home
35: Your Account
36: Home
37: Statistics
38: Community Forums
39: Home
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Home
43: Supporters
44: News Archive
45: News Archive
46: Community Forums
47: Your Account
48: Home
49: Home
50: Home
51: Treasury
52: Community Forums
53: Member Screenshots
54: Community Forums
55: Photo Gallery
56: Supporters
57: Photo Gallery
58: Your Account
59: Home
60: Downloads
61: Home
62: Home
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Member Screenshots
66: Your Account
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Home
70: Home
71: Downloads
72: Home
73: Community Forums
74: Your Account
75: Member Screenshots
76: Your Account
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Photo Gallery
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Photo Gallery
83: Home
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Home
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Member Screenshots
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Home
94: Community Forums
95: Your Account
96: Home
97: Home
98: Community Forums
99: News Archive
100: Community Forums
101: Home
102: News Archive
103: Home
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: News
107: Your Account
108: Home
109: Home
110: Photo Gallery
111: Community Forums
112: Home
113: Photo Gallery
114: News Archive
115: News Archive
116: Home
117: Home
118: Community Forums
119: Home
120: Home
121: Home
122: Home
123: Your Account
124: Home
125: Community Forums
126: Member Screenshots
127: Community Forums
128: Home
129: Home
130: Downloads
131: Downloads
132: Community Forums
133: Home
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Home
137: Home
138: Home
139: Your Account
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Home
144: Photo Gallery
145: News
146: News Archive
147: News Archive
148: Community Forums
149: Home
150: Home
151: Home
152: Home
153: Your Account
154: Home
155: Photo Gallery
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Home
161: Community Forums
162: News
163: News Archive
164: News Archive
165: Your Account
166: Home
167: Community Forums
168: Home
169: Home
170: Member Screenshots
171: Community Forums
172: Home
173: Community Forums
174: News Archive
175: News Archive
176: Home
177: Your Account
178: Community Forums
179: Home
180: Photo Gallery
181: Community Forums
182: Home
183: Home
184: Community Forums
185: Downloads
186: Community Forums
187: Photo Gallery
188: Photo Gallery
189: Community Forums
190: Your Account
191: Search
192: Photo Gallery
193: Photo Gallery
194: Home
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Home
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Home
203: Your Account
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Member Screenshots
207: Home
208: Community Forums
209: Member Screenshots
210: Home
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Home
214: Home
215: Member Screenshots
216: Your Account
217: Member Screenshots
218: News Archive
219: News Archive
220: Home
221: News Archive
222: Community Forums
223: Home
224: Photo Gallery
225: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M113 #1?????
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:12 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

- bsmart
I'm gpoing to disagree with you here. "Quantity has a quality all it's own"

Within a class of weapons the ability to deploy enough items so that it is effective is important. The Sherman/T34 v Panther is a very good example of this. While neither one can match the Panther one on one they were able to compete because both could be produced in volume and deployed and supported so that they were always available in useful quantities while Panthers were never available in enough quantity to keep the units up to strength


The question is whether the qantity factor reflects qualities of the vehicle (ease of manufacture) or the production system building it. I'd guess that the US tank plants could build Panthers at about the same rate as they could build Shermans and vice-versa.

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:51 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

- clausb

The question is whether the qantity factor reflects qualities of the vehicle (ease of manufacture) or the production system building it. I'd guess that the US tank plants could build Panthers at about the same rate as they could build Shermans and vice-versa.

cbo


I'm not sure about that. From what I've read there were many parts of the panther that were desiigned to be 'massaged' into place. Also much of it was assembed as piecework.

The Sherman during it's development was worked over by automotive production engineers to tweak it for high volume series production. Everything from parts standardization to having a well developed 'Change Order' system for introducing changes to the production line had been well developed by the high volume production system used by the American automobile industry.

The big difference between the American and the European tank production was that The Americans decided that 35 ton tanks could be built on a true assembly line like passenger cars instead of by heavy engineering firms that were used to building locomotives and other heavy equipment.

It would have been interesting to see what a 'production engineered Panther' would have looked like after the American assembly line specialists had gotten done with it. It would also be interesting to see what a Panther fitted with some of the advanced features of the Sherman would have been (Like the constant speed hydraulic turret drive) but it would have been a much different beast that the standard Panther

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:18 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

- bsmart
I'm not sure about that. From what I've read there were many parts of the panther that were desiigned to be 'massaged' into place. Also much of it was assembed as piecework.

The Sherman during it's development was worked over by automotive production engineers to tweak it for high volume series production. Everything from parts standardization to having a well developed 'Change Order' system for introducing changes to the production line had been well developed by the high volume production system used by the American automobile industry.

The big difference between the American and the European tank production was that The Americans decided that 35 ton tanks could be built on a true assembly line like passenger cars instead of by heavy engineering firms that were used to building locomotives and other heavy equipment.


You could be right about the design not being as fit for massproduction as the Sherman, but it seems that it was a good deal better than for earlier German tanks (which may not say much Smile )

I think the bottom line is that the number and types of parts that goes into a WWII tank of a given size are about the same. It needs an engine, transmission, armoured hull etc. What really governs output is access to rawmaterials, machinery, manpower etc. And here Germany was lagging behind the US. Add to that the fact that US plants, transport, etc. wasn'øt bombed every other day. In the bigger picture, improving the design for production may make some gain, but it cannot do much to change the basic production system and its flaws.

It would have been interesting to see what a 'production engineered Panther' would have looked like after the American assembly line specialists had gotten done with it. It would also be interesting to see what a Panther fitted with some of the advanced features of the Sherman would have been (Like the constant speed hydraulic turret drive) but it would have been a much different beast that the standard Panther


I think one problem would be that the Germans did not have the materials needed to make some of the features of the Sherman. The Sherman turret traverse, for example, used an electric motor for power and that togetherwith the required wiring might not have fitted well with Germanys precarious raw material situation. The mechanical-hydraulic system used in the Panther and Tiger used only steel.

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
SHAWN
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:37 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

hello roy,
it may not seem like much, but much respect to you and doug for serving on/in the track. thank you. my dads war photos dont paint a nice combat picture of the track. i think there must be alot of comparisons of the M4 in WW2 to the M113 in Nam.
when i called it a frig, i mean cause it was made by FMC (Food Machinery Corp., they made refrigators){M2/M3 also made by FMC}. i work in an aluminum fab shop and i wouldnt place AL between myself and bullets no how (unless it is moved by pratt & whitney).
it justed seems that good praise and all, that the, say "bad" qualities as told by my dad, by roy, by doug, others combat vets, hang heavy over that track thus hindering it being that close to the top of the list. you had to sandbag the interior, you woudnt ride inside (let alone fight from inside it-- ifv??), you wouldnt hang your limps inside or outside of the thing, you pretty much just rode on top... (please, please forgive me, but this doesnt make me feel confident in this thing). all of the pics dad has from nam that show damaged tracks, it isnt like they were lost in a european armored conflict. (they were lost to some of the best light infantry the world has seen).
we took AL plate out to the range, it dont stop .308, .223, unless you stack it up pretty thick... we spaced it (hell, that made it worse). it melts much more so than steel...

the M2/M3 is AL with steel plates hanging all over it...
arent the improved armor upgrades for the current M113 basically along the same lines?
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:37 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

Hi Shawn! Hi Folks!

The following post is done in the spirt of showing those who may not know there is more to the story.
Before I started hanging out here, I have a VERY bad impression of the Sherman tank during it's use in NWE. Thanks to others who have pointed out facts I didn't think about before, I now feel that tank was the right vehicle, for the right time, and POSSIBLE the best that could be fielded at that time.

- SHAWN

my dads war photos dont paint a nice combat picture of the track.


How's this Shawn for a bad picture? All four of us survived hitting a large land mine. I think my right gunner died later of pneumonia in a hospital on Oklinawa. My right gunner/Platoon Leader was returned to the field after a check up and an overnight stay at the 93rd Evac Hospital, my driver returned to the field after a month of light duty. I returned to duty after three months of light duty.


There is more to the story than bad pictures. What counts (to me anyway) is the number of people who survived after their AFV has been hit by something. In the case of my first ACAV, most of that damage happiened AFTER we were able to get out of and off of it.

Look at a picture of an Iraqi T72 that has been burned out (like my 1st ACAV) with it's turret blown off. One has to ask, was the crew able to get out after the first hit and before the secondary fire set off the remaining main gun ammo? Both pictures show you a burn out and total destoryed AFV. However they do not tell the story of the crew. It's the crew that counts, not the vehicle and how well it does or does not survive a hit.

- SHAWN

when i called it a frig, i mean cause it was made by FMC (Food Machinery Corp., they made refrigators){M2/M3 also made by FMC}. i work in an aluminum fab shop and i wouldnt place AL between myself and bullets no how (unless it is moved by pratt & whitney).


Don't forget, FMC also made the LVTP7/AAV7. I have never heard the armored vehicle department of FMC call "Frig" before.
Anyway, I am sure that the AFV plant was not the same one that made refrigators.

- SHAWN

it justed seems that good praise and all, that the, say "bad" qualities as told by my dad, by roy, by doug, others combat vets, hang heavy over that track thus hindering it being that close to the top of the list.


Name something, anything that is prefect.

- SHAWN

you had to sandbag the interior,


Not very crew did that. You could if you wanted to but there was no unit SOP requiring it. Nether one of my two ACAVs where sandbaged. In the case of the first one, sandbags would NOT have helped due to the size of the mine. That is just like the Sherman crews of WWII who put sandbags on the outside of their tanks just because they thought and hoped it MIGHT help. I for one didn't care for the idea of dirt being driven into my skin by an explosion.

- SHAWN

you woudnt ride inside (let alone fight from inside it-- ifv??)


The driver rode inside. Sure some units modified the driving controls so the driver could set on top of his hatch and above the armor. During my 18 months with the Army, I never saw a M113 modified like that.

As for fighting inside, the M60 gunner's had to get inside to fire their guns.

The difference is what the vehicle is doing.
If moving, the main threat was land mines under the vehicle. (Name a IFV/APC that IS prof against landmines) Therefore the best protection was riding on top the vehicle with both the bottom armor and the top armor between you and that landmine. It's a good thing the M113 had a top that had room for the M60 gunners to ride on top.

When contact was made, the vehicles stopped, ending the threat of land mines. The M60 gunner's then dropped inside the hull to take cover behind the side armor to operate their weapons. The driver of my second AFV came up with an SOP. When he saw a 50 cal ammo fly over the front of the hull, he came up out of his compartment and started firing his M16 to the front of the vehcile. When he saw the lid of a 50 cal ammo can fly over the front of the vehicle, he dropped back down inside. What was that all about? I was reloading the M2. The crew firing weapons while inside the vehicle? Sounds like an IFV to me.

- SHAWN

you wouldnt hang your limps inside or outside of the thing, you pretty much just rode on top...


When the main threat is landmine under a vehicle, you don't hang limps off the side of ANY, let me say that again ANY, AFV. That is not a problem with the vehicle or it's armor, it a problem with the blast wave moving up the side of the AFV that set it off.


- SHAWN

(please, please forgive me, but this doesnt make me feel confident in this thing).


Having never been there, no problem. As one who has had an ACAV blown apart under me, I for one, think very highly of the M113 and the FMC plant that build them.

- SHAWN

all of the pics dad has from nam that show damaged tracks, it isnt like they were lost in a european armored conflict. (they were lost to some of the best light infantry the world has seen).


It was a very good vehicle for the time and the threat is faced. It was used many times to do things it was never build to do. One example, used as a recovery vehicle to tow combat loaded Sheridans, estimated weight 25 tons, using a trailier hitch mounted in an aluminum ramp that was only rated at 7.5 tons for towing. Towed a number of Sheridans, never broke the hitch or the ramp it was mounted in.

- SHAWN

we took AL plate out to the range, it dont stop .308, .223, unless you stack it up pretty thick... we spaced it (hell, that made it worse).


Was that aluminum plate from refrigerators? Or was it 5083 aluminum alloy rolled armored plate?

Get yourself a M113 and shoot at it with your .308 and .223. I think you will find it will stop those rounds because the protection level it was designed for is a bit higher that those rounds.

- SHAWN

it melts much more so than steel...


True. So what?
No body is going to stay inside a burning AFV if it is at all possble to get out. The melting happiens long after the crew is out or dead, so it's doesn't matter one way or the other. This is just another one of those 'IT'S BAD' claims that has no merit in the real world of crew survival.

- SHAWN

the M2/M3 is AL with steel plates hanging all over it...
arent the improved armor upgrades for the current M113 basically along the same lines


Yes, the Bradleys and the M113s (the few that are being used) have been upgraded with steel armor.

You are however forgetting the threats that the original designs were layed out for, the threats in Vietnam that most M113s faced, and the current threats the vehicles face today. They are not the same and upgrades that help protect the crews against the current types of threat have been added.

Shawn, you feel the M113 is not a good vehicle. OK what would you suggest the U.S. Army have used during Vietnam in place of the M113? Keep in mind that the Army had no plans to use the M113 in Vietnam to start with.

Maybe the Army could have used the USMC's LVTP5s. That was about the only other Infantry carrier in the inventory at that time and they were made out of steel and not aluminum armor. Asks Older Top, I am sure he can tell a bunch of good and possible even more bad stories about those steel boxes.

Again, I say, I might not rate it as the best IFV/APC ever, but it would be very close.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 2 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum